Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-01-2019, 11:53 AM
TK Burk's Avatar
TK Burk TK Burk is offline
Lamb Saved & Shepherd Led


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,729
The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy Ghost

Did Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost before being baptized in Jesus name prove water baptism is not necessary for salvation? THIS STUDY by DD Benincasa answers this often asked question.
__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

www.tkburk.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-01-2019, 02:01 PM
diakonos's Avatar
diakonos diakonos is offline
TRAVIESO


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 559
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G


What does the second D stand for?
__________________
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-01-2019, 03:45 PM
TK Burk's Avatar
TK Burk TK Burk is offline
Lamb Saved & Shepherd Led


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,729
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos View Post

What does the second D stand for?
The second is Dominic. The first is Doctor.

__________________
The Bible is open to those that want Truth, and if they want Truth, they find Truth. They watch individuals squabble over Bible symbolism on the Internet, and leave the Message boards to enter into the real world where live people dwell, and they find Truth. The World Wide Web is full of Internet Ayatollahs who speak their mind. There is only one Truth, and it is not hidden. No matter what anyone says, Truth still converts the sincere.
 -DD Benincasa, 12/06/03

www.tkburk.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-01-2019, 05:03 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,766
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk View Post
Did Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost before being baptized in Jesus name prove water baptism is not necessary for salvation? THIS STUDY by DD Benincasa answers this often asked question.
Nope it proved you need both no matter what.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-02-2019, 11:06 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 646
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk View Post
Did Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost before being baptized in Jesus name prove water baptism is not necessary for salvation? THIS STUDY by DD Benincasa answers this often asked question.
What it shows is that God apparently will forgive someone's sins prior to water baptism if they have come to faith but are in a situation where believers will not lead them to baptism first, as was most likely Cornelius's situation. Of course the normal place for the faith and repentance that bring the remission of sins to be expressed is water baptism, but God's actions in Acts 10 show He is not bound by that if a someone is in a situation like Cornelius's. The only thing that brings the forgiveness of sins at baptism is true faith and repentance, not the ceremonial act itself. If someone thinks that Cornelius's sins were still not remitted yet even at the point when he received the Spirit, then he or she has to believe what I find impossible to believe that Cornelius was still lost till he got in the water since his sins were still against him

Cornelius's situation was unusual and called for an unusual experience. He was a Gentile. Gentiles had not come into the church yet. The conference in Acts 15 had not occurred yet and the gathered leaders had not concluded that Gentiles did not have to become Jews first and embrace the Torah before becoming followers of Christ. Most Jewish Christians would not have baptized Cornelius and his household without a revelational action from God authorizing it, so God gave the Spirit to them immediately upon them coming to faith and forgave their sins before being baptized ultimately to show that Gentiles who came to faith in Christ were accepted as they were without having to embrace the Torah first. After the Gentiles received the Spirit, no Jewish Christian could deny that they should be baptized. Cornelius's situation did not devalue baptism or show that baptism is not the normal place for saving faith to be expressed and the remission of sins to occur.

Cornelius's experience was not intended to be paradigmatic--we do not see it happen again in Acts, and we do not see it preached that the order of baptism to Spirit baptism doesn't matter, though Pentecostals generally seem to think the order doesn't matter and, in my experience, seem to prefer the experience of Cornelius to the order of Acts 2:38. Countless times I've seen people try to get people to repent apart from baptism and to seek to receive the Spirit, and if that doesn't quite work out, then urge them to go ahead and be baptized.

The normal pattern is to repent and be baptized and then seek the baptism of the Spirit. This avoids the theological conundrum of standard Oneness Pentecostalism's soteriology of having people filled with the Spirit but still apparently lost since their sins are still against them till they get in the water to be baptized for the remission of sins. I, for example, received that Spirit during a revival service I was invited to, but nobody got around to telling me about the necessity of baptism in Jesus' name for many months after that. I had been baptized in a Baptist church years before this, and I was obviously growing in my faith and loved my experience in the Spirit, so I didn't think I needed to be rebaptized. As it turned out I immediately said yes when I was finally taught about Jesus's name baptism and was asked if I wanted to be baptized to obey Scripture. I cannot believe I was lost for those many months simply because I was in a situation where believers failed to lead me to baptism sooner. What seems apparent is that God forgave me of my sins the night I repented and was filled with the Spirit.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:40 AM
diakonos's Avatar
diakonos diakonos is offline
TRAVIESO


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 559
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G


Response to the article:

But, people today receive the Holy Spirit before baptism.
__________________
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:35 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 646
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos View Post

Response to the article:

But, people today receive the Holy Spirit before baptism.
Correct. I noted in my post that for most Pentecostals in my experience this appears to be the preferred order and what is encouraged, and I noted that I experienced this as well. I'm not saying that it can't happen. I am saying that it's not the biblical norm, though, again, it seems the UPCI at any rate makes it a norm, and it raises a significant question about baptism.

The order that was commanded in Acts 2:38 is what was practiced everywhere else in the Book of Acts, and this shows that there was something unique about Cornelius's experience, being a Gentile, that led God to give him the Spirit before baptism.

I am also pointing out that this order of experience shows that God in certain situations apparently forgives sins at faith and repentance if the person seeking him is in a situation where other believers will not lead him in the Acts 2:38 order; otherwise, you have a situation where a person somehow is given the HOLY Spirit while still remaining unclean in sin--and hell-bound till he is led to water baptism.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:13 PM
hometown guy hometown guy is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,766
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Sin has always been forgiven at true repentance. Remission of sins is what happens at baptism not forgiveness of sins.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:28 PM
diakonos's Avatar
diakonos diakonos is offline
TRAVIESO


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 559
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Sin has always been forgiven at true repentance. Remission of sins is what happens at baptism not forgiveness of sins.
There is NO difference between forgiveness and remission of sin.
__________________
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:52 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 646
Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Sin has always been forgiven at true repentance. Remission of sins is what happens at baptism not forgiveness of sins.
As Diakonos said, there is no difference. It has been very common in the Oneness Pentecostal movement to assert what you have asserted here, but unfortunately this view cannot be based on a study of the Greek NT. Unfortunately, the KJV translators often used a variety of translations for a single Hebrew or Greek word, as they themselves note in the preface to their translation, which in the case of remission and forgiveness has led to the mistaken view that an actual difference exists between these two words.

it's too bad it can't be maintained. It was the only way to explain the scenario I have mentioned in my previous posts. Presented with the situation of someone being filled with the Spirit before they were baptized, it was helpful to be able to say, "Oh, well the reason that could happen is that God had forgiven them and so could fill them with the Spirit, but they still needed to get baptized so those sins would be remitted--fully removed from their account." Unfortunately this interpretation is invalid.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Holy Ghost Baptism an emphasis mfblume Deep Waters 9 08-05-2016 08:59 PM
Tarrying for the Holy Ghost Baptism Sam Fellowship Hall 18 05-22-2012 03:09 PM
Seeking the Baptism of the Holy Ghost Isaiah_0 Deep Waters 53 04-22-2011 09:28 PM
Why Does God Give the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? EA Fellowship Hall 95 01-08-2009 09:52 PM
HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) Sam Fellowship Hall 5 08-14-2008 08:39 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by mfblume
- by TJJJ
- by Esaias
- by Esaias

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.