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  #11  
Old 05-09-2019, 10:39 AM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Sin has always been forgiven at true repentance. Remission of sins is what happens at baptism not forgiveness of sins.
Those hearing Peter on the Day of Pentecost asked how they could be saved from the guilt of their sin. He answered them with the Acts 2:38 message of salvation. The question here is whether the “remission” in Acts 2:38 is the same word as “forgiveness.”

The first evidence they're the same is found in the Greek word aphesis (see Strong’s G859). The King James Version (KJV) translates aphesis as “remission” in Acts 2:38. The KJV also translates aphesis six times as “forgiveness” (See Mark 3:29, Acts 5:31, Acts 13:38, Acts 26:18, Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:14). Thus, aphesis means both “remission” and “forgiveness” in the KJV. This same word is also translated as both “deliverance” and “liberty” in Luke 4:18. The reason for these differences is purely due to a translator’s preference when trying to convey the meaning of the context where aphesis is found. Therefore, aphesis can properly be translated as “remission” or as “forgiveness.”

Another evidence for their similarity is found in the biblical meaning of “remission” and forgiveness.” For this, I'll use the Webster's Dictionary of American English (1828) definition. Please, pay special attention to the words I underlined.

Quote:
Remission: 5. Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Mat 26. Heb 9

Forgiveness: 2. The pardon or remission of an offense or crime; as the forgiveness of sin or of injuries.
Thus, remission means forgiveness, and forgiveness means remission, so they carrying the same message.
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:53 AM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
... and forgave their sins before being baptized...

...the theological conundrum of standard Oneness Pentecostalism's soteriology of having people filled with the Spirit but still apparently lost since their sins are still against them till they get in the water to be baptized for the remission of sins.

If someone thinks that Cornelius's sins were still not remitted yet even at the point when he received the Spirit, then he or she has to believe what I find impossible to believe that Cornelius was still lost till he got in the water since his sins were still against him.
Jesus said many would be lost who nevertheless cast out demons in Jesus' name, etc. These were people who professed that Jesus was Lord.

So apparently one can not only "have the Holy Ghost" and be lost, but even be baptized and functioning within the visible church, professing Jesus is Lord, and be lost. Jesus did not revoke their salvation, He said He would say to them "I never knew you." Meaning, they were never saved to begin with. (Matt 7:23)

Paul taught likewise that one can operate in all the gifts and still be lost (1 Cor 13).

Cornelius' experience was indeed a departure from the norm. But it was not for the purpose of showing that forgiveness operates independently from baptism.

The unproven assumption is that one must be forgiven before receiving the Spirit. I find a total of 0 verses which say that. What is stated is that the world cannot receive the Spirit, thus it seems that being called is the prerequisite. Yet, many are called, but few are chosen. And, the calling must be made sure (established, made certain and effectual).

Being called occurs prior to being forgiven. It is thus possible to receive the Spirit prior to bring forgiven.

But perhaps more importantly we should consider why the Bible does not view salvation as a series of steps, like we often do. So that we see "problems and conundrums" where the Bible does not. Biblically, salvation is more holistic. "What if X but not Y?" is more along the lines of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:30 PM
Ehud Ehud is online now
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Jesus said many would be lost who nevertheless cast out demons in Jesus' name, etc. These were people who professed that Jesus was Lord.

So apparently one can not only "have the Holy Ghost" and be lost, but even be baptized and functioning within the visible church, professing Jesus is Lord, and be lost. Jesus did not revoke their salvation, He said He would say to them "I never knew you." Meaning, they were never saved to begin with. (Matt 7:23)

Paul taught likewise that one can operate in all the gifts and still be lost (1 Cor 13).
Good afternoon, Bro. Esaias!

I have always been puzzled by these passages. How can one profess Christ and be used mightily yet still be lost? I have wondered if such folks are those who did all of these things, but then decided to just wait it out until the end. For instance, I've heard stories of revivals with repentance, baptism, miracles, etc, but whose participants, years later, are on spiritual life support. They still profess Jesus as Lord, but all they can do is bark about rules and "the good old days." If we are to be epistles read of all men, these folks read more like Stephen King novels than the Gospel of Jesus.
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Old 05-09-2019, 02:44 PM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Ehud View Post
Good afternoon, Bro. Esaias!

I have always been puzzled by these passages. How can one profess Christ and be used mightily yet still be lost? I have wondered if such folks are those who did all of these things, but then decided to just wait it out until the end. For instance, I've heard stories of revivals with repentance, baptism, miracles, etc, but whose participants, years later, are on spiritual life support. They still profess Jesus as Lord, but all they can do is bark about rules and "the good old days." If we are to be epistles read of all men, these folks read more like Stephen King novels than the Gospel of Jesus.
Jesus identified those people as "workers of iniquity", or "workers of lawlessness". He prefaced His statements with "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom, but (rather) those who do the will of my Father." So these are folks who are not living obediently to the will of God, they practice lawlessness (sin, transgression of the law). Lawlessness means without law and is a Biblical term for those who transgress the commandments of God with impunity, presumptuously, as if they were under no authority but their own devising. Autonomy, instead of theonomy. Rule or law of self instead of rule by God.

The new covenant work of the Spirit includes writing the laws of God in the minds and hearts, that is it produces obedience to God from the heart. If that does not occur, then one is not "saved", although such a one may have all the outward appearances (spiritual effects, part of the church, professing to know the Lord, etc).

The false believers in Jude's epistle were able to mingle seemingly undetected amongst first century apostolic believers. So they looked the part, but their heart and lifestyle wasn't reflecting God's revealed will for people.
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  #15  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:47 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

I've always understood it like this...

Prior to Cornelius' salvation we read about him. And this is what we're told...
Acts 10:1-6
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
Based on the above passage, this is what we know about Cornelius before his being born again...
- Cornelius was a Gentile centurion.
- Cornelius was a devout man, fearing God, along with all his house.
- Cornelius was a generous man who gave alms to the people.
- Cornelius was a man of prayer.
- Cornelius was visited by an angel in a vision while in prayer.
- Cornelius humbly inquired regarding the angel's purpose.
- The angel states that Cornelius' prayers have been noted by God.
- The angel tells Cornelius to send for Peter, and that Peter would tell Cornelius what he must do.
Here, we have an unsaved man of faith. A devout, but merely religious man. Based on the clues in the text, it would appear that Cornelius had come to believe in the God of the Jews. This man's devotion clearly caught God's attention, and so God sent an angel to Cornelius to tell Cornelius what he must do. Let's read about what Cornelius did next...
Acts 10:7-8
7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;
8 And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.
Based on the above, Cornelius immediately tells the experience to two of his servants, and a soldier, all of whom waited on Cornelius continually. Cornelius then sends them to Joppa to bring Peter.

Now, I want to mention something. Most of the time we think of repentance in the context of an "altar call" with sobbing and snotty crying over sin and a pleading for salvation. But repentance is a disposition of heart. It is a heart that desires to turn from one's current life to a life of obedience and pleasing God. These actions are the actions of a man who is repentant and desiring all that God has for him. He knows his life is about to change. He knows the lives of his household are about to change. He's filled with faith, desire, and expectancy. I find it hard to argue that this disposition doesn't illustrate a repentant heart. A heart that is broken wide open, ready to receive whatever God has for him.

Concerning Peter's interaction with Cornelius after his vision, we read...
Acts 10:17-26
17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
I like this passage because we read how Cornelius' servants met up with Peter and how they explained why they had come. I also like how Peter takes them in and lodges them. On the very next day, they all set off to Caesarea and meet with the waiting Cornelius. Now, note the disposition of Cornelius. When Peter walks in, Cornelius meets Peter, and then falls down at his feet and worships him. Cornelius is utterly undone, and has been since the angel spoke to him. Cornelius doesn't know what to do next, and all he can think of is to bow down and worship Peter. I imagine this as a sincere and tear filled meeting, with Cornelius on his knees before Peter, confessing his unworthiness. Of course, Peter takes Cornelius and lifts him up, confessing, "Stand up, I myself also am a man." Cornelius was ripe for a Savior. His disposition is one of repentance and brokenness, a readiness and expectation for all God has for him. Perhaps with what little he knew of Judaism, maybe Cornelius thought Peter was the Messiah. But the behavior of Cornelius is one of repentance, brokenness, and expectation.

If we continue to read the chapter, we see Cornelius and Peter both sharing their visions with one another. Then Peter begins preaching...
Acts 10:34-44
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Based on Peter's testimony below, the Holy Ghost began to fall on the Gentiles listening as he began speaking...
Acts 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Cornelius, and the Gentiles present, were clearly waiting with great expectancy and anticipation regarding what Peter was to tell them. This faith and expectancy demonstrates their desire to turn from their current manner and beliefs to the truth Peter was to present them. As soon as Peter began speaking, the Holy Spirit began moving as He so desired, and all the Gentiles were immediately filled with the Holy Spirit in this atmosphere of faith and expectancy.
Acts 10:45-46
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Next we read how Peter admonished that these Gentiles should be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 10:47-48
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
So, we see Cornelius and the Gentiles who were waiting with faith and expectancy receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with speaking in other tongues, prior to their water baptism.

Cornelius' actions demonstrate faith. Cornelius received the word of the angel and was nearly bursting at the seams to receive the words of Peter. Cornelius was so ready to receive all God had for him that he received the Holy Spirit as Peter began speaking.

Last edited by Antipas; 05-09-2019 at 02:53 PM.
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  #16  
Old 05-09-2019, 02:57 PM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

And the skinny answer is, the Roman God Fearer got the Holy Ghost first to make a point to the Judean Law Keeper newly baptized Christians. That the dog, stones, and unclean beasts are accepted by God.

thank you for playing.

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Old 05-09-2019, 03:04 PM
Ehud Ehud is online now
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
...that is it produces obedience to God from the heart. If that does not occur, then one is not "saved"...
I think this is a much better way of saying what I intended. The folks I have in mind seem to have let real faith deteriorate into mere mental ascent. I'm not sure how people can profess to have the love of Christ while berating others over every misstep made. I certainly don't mean turn a blind eye or condone the misbehavior, but if someone is living to shout "gotcha!" they probably aren't doing that heart thing very well.

Sorry, I probably wandered off into left field with that, but I'm grouchy today. Ha!

Thank you as always for the response, my friend!
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:29 PM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Ehud View Post
I think this is a much better way of saying what I intended. The folks I have in mind seem to have let real faith deteriorate into mere mental ascent. I'm not sure how people can profess to have the love of Christ while berating others over every misstep made. I certainly don't mean turn a blind eye or condone the misbehavior, but if someone is living to shout "gotcha!" they probably aren't doing that heart thing very well.

Sorry, I probably wandered off into left field with that, but I'm grouchy today. Ha!

Thank you as always for the response, my friend!
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Old 05-09-2019, 06:42 PM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Jesus said many would be lost who nevertheless cast out demons in Jesus' name, etc. These were people who professed that Jesus was Lord.

So apparently one can not only "have the Holy Ghost" and be lost, but even be baptized and functioning within the visible church, professing Jesus is Lord, and be lost. Jesus did not revoke their salvation, He said He would say to them "I never knew you." Meaning, they were never saved to begin with. (Matt 7:23)

Paul taught likewise that one can operate in all the gifts and still be lost (1 Cor 13).
These texts do not involve people, like Cornelius, with true faith turning to Christ, and so I don't think they really speak to the issue of when someone is first saved.

Quote:
Cornelius' experience was indeed a departure from the norm. But it was not for the purpose of showing that forgiveness operates independently from baptism.
Yes, that was not the purpose of God baptizing them with the Spirit before baptism; he was making a point to the Jewish Christians about Gentiles turning to him without needing to become Jews first, but it does imply that God can forgive sins apart from baptism if he chooses.

Quote:
The unproven assumption is that one must be forgiven before receiving the Spirit. I find a total of 0 verses which say that. What is stated is that the world cannot receive the Spirit, thus it seems that being called is the prerequisite. Yet, many are called, but few are chosen. And, the calling must be made sure (established, made certain and effectual).

Being called occurs prior to being forgiven. It is thus possible to receive the Spirit prior to bring forgiven.
It's no assumption. The order of Acts 2:38 is not haphazard as if Peter just happened to mention repentance first and receiving the gift of the Spirit last. No, there is a a logical flow to the order he gives. The order is significant and shows that the prerequisite to receiving the baptism of the Spirit is forgiveness of sins. It's not surprising, then, that we never see people being filled with the Spirit prior to repentance/baptism in the rest of Acts, with the exception of Cornelius. The Scriptural norm is established by Acts 2:38 and the rest of the conversion accounts in Acts. We should follow this norm. The normal place that God has established for expressing saving faith and repentance and receiving the forgiveness of sins is water baptism. Cornelius's experience shows that God can and will grant forgiveness before baptism under certain extenuating circumstances, such as what Cornelius faced. I am not, however, authorized to preach exceptions to the rule. I am to preach as Peter did in Acts 2:38.

Quote:
But perhaps more importantly we should consider why the Bible does not view salvation as a series of steps, like we often do. So that we see "problems and conundrums" where the Bible does not. Biblically, salvation is more holistic. "What if X but not Y?" is more along the lines of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
I don't think trying to determine the moment someone is redeemed is the equivalent of asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is a specific moment when we die to sin and are raised again. There is a specific moment we are circumcised in the Spirit. There is a specific moment when the Father transfers a person into the kingdom of the Son of his love. It is not gradual, as if someone eases into it. There is a moment, and I want to know what this is.

The Bible never says that you can be forgiven of your sins and at that moment still be lost. The Bible never says you can receive the Spirit and at that moment still be lost. So any teaching that leads to or suggests the possibility of these things happening cannot be true.

As it is, that's what the standard Oneness view of conversion leads to. Someone can repent and be baptized and be forgiven, but still be lost till they are baptized in the Spirit and speak in tongues. Conversely, someone can be baptized in the Spirit and have experienced the fullness of the Spirit in conversion, but still be lost till they are baptized in water. There is no way of getting around these conclusions.

I'm not aware of any other teaching on the conversion experience (Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) that leads to these possibilities.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:29 PM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
These texts do not involve people, like Cornelius, with true faith turning to Christ, and so I don't think they really speak to the issue of when someone is first saved.
They speak to people who confess Jesus as Lord (which in the first century context implies water baptism, as the idea one could be a Christian apart from baptism was introduced around the 17th century) and who work miracles, cast out demons, and prophesy in His Name, all of which takes place via the operation of the Spirit. Yet, these people not only "wound up lost" but were never saved to begin with, the Lord says "I never knew you".



Quote:
Yes, that was not the purpose of God baptizing them with the Spirit before baptism; he was making a point to the Jewish Christians about Gentiles turning to him without needing to become Jews first, but it does imply that God can forgive sins apart from baptism if he chooses.
No, it does not imply that. In fact, the context, and the angel's words to Cornelius, and Peter's response to the incident demonstrate quite the opposite, that baptism is for the remission of sins, even in Cornelius' case.



Quote:
It's no assumption. The order of Acts 2:38 is not haphazard as if Peter just happened to mention repentance first and receiving the gift of the Spirit last. No, there is a a logical flow to the order he gives. The order is significant and shows that the prerequisite to receiving the baptism of the Spirit is forgiveness of sins.
No, if anything it shows the prerequisite is "repent AND BE BAPTISED". It doesn't say "be forgiven so you can receive the Spirit". It says repent and be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Spirit. You shall and so you can are two different things, one is not the other.

Quote:
It's not surprising, then, that we never see people being filled with the Spirit prior to repentance/baptism in the rest of Acts, with the exception of Cornelius. The Scriptural norm is established by Acts 2:38 and the rest of the conversion accounts in Acts. We should follow this norm. The normal place that God has established for expressing saving faith and repentance and receiving the forgiveness of sins is water baptism.
Absolutely, I agree 100%.


Quote:
Cornelius's experience shows that God can and will grant forgiveness before baptism under certain extenuating circumstances, such as what Cornelius faced.
This is where you interject a theological interpreration into the text. No such thing is stated in Scripture, nor is it ever discussed or explained in the way you are presenting it, with the conclusion(s) you are drawing.

Quote:
I am not, however, authorized to preach exceptions to the rule. I am to preach as Peter did in Acts 2:38.
Exactly.



Quote:
I don't think trying to determine the moment someone is redeemed is the equivalent of asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There is a specific moment when we die to sin and are raised again.
Which is in water baptism.

Quote:
There is a specific moment we are circumcised in the Spirit.
Which appears to take place in baptism.

Quote:
There is a specific moment when the Father transfers a person into the kingdom of the Son of his love.
Which according to Scripture is conjoined with being placed into Christ, which parallels being placed into Moses (1 Cor 10) which requires "water and Spirit" (John 3:5). In other words, it is identified with new birth or regeneration, which is identified with water baptism AND receiving the Spirit, which is viewed in Scripture not as separable events but as a whole (a unity, being born again, converted, "saved").

Quote:
It is not gradual, as if someone eases into it. There is a moment, and I want to know what this is.
Scripture presents (initial) salvation or conversion as an effect or result of repentance, baptism in the Lord's name, and receiving the Spirit. We habitually break this soteriological unity into component parts or " steps" but I believe that is unscriptural (since the apostles never did such).

Quote:
The Bible never says that you can be forgiven of your sins and at that moment still be lost. The Bible never says you can receive the Spirit and at that moment still be lost. So any teaching that leads to or suggests the possibility of these things happening cannot be true.
Being forgiven but still lost... receiving the Spirit but still lost... are erroneous ways of thinking and speaking, due to separating the unity of conversion into "steps". Common, but erroneous. Your attempt to solve the error by.positing remission of sins prior to baptism is just another species of the same basic error.

Quote:
As it is, that's what the standard Oneness view of conversion leads to. Someone can repent and be baptized and be forgiven, but still be lost till they are baptized in the Spirit and speak in tongues. Conversely, someone can be baptized in the Spirit and have experienced the fullness of the Spirit in conversion, but still be lost till they are baptized in water. There is no way of getting around these conclusions.
See above.

Quote:
I'm not aware of any other teaching on the conversion experience (Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) that leads to these possibilities.
Catholic, Orthodox, many Protestants, and most if not all Campbellites believe one receives the Spirit in the act of baptism. Other Protestants and many Baptists believe one receives the Spirit upon initial belief. Other Protestants and some Baptists believe one is born again of the Spirit prior to believing (Reformed, Calvinists, etc).

None of them believe receiving the Spirit is accompanied by external, visible (actually, audible) physical phenomena.
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