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  #41  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:33 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

Well, not really, it makes perfect sense if a person simply has the whole thing sewn up and isn't really interested in DIALOGUE and DISCUSSION but is simply interested in pontificating.

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  #42  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:49 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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I find it amazing that, rather than dealing with what was presented, people will ignore what is said, restate their position, repeat their erroneous summary of the other side's position, and then declare victory for themselves and "an impasse" for the discussion.

It's really bizarre to be honest.

Well, not really, it makes perfect sense if a person simply has the whole thing sewn up and isn't really interested in DIALOGUE and DISCUSSION but is simply interested in pontificating.
You're mischaracterizing my post. I'm not pontificating. Why go there? I disagree with your take. You disagree with mine. I didn't think it would be helpful to go line by line and say, "I disagree." I've dialogued with you a few times before, and it has generally ended up with us not agreeing with each other. Going round and round over every verse has never accomplished anything. I was just trying to shorten the process, since we are, indeed, at an impasse.

Again, here is the implication of the most common Oneness Pentecostal view of the conversion experience: someone may be resurrected in Christ at the moment he receives the Spirit, but if he has not yet been baptized, he never actually died or was buried with Christ to begin with. He is raised with Christ, but now needs to die and be buried with Christ. That doesn't make sense, and I am surprised that anyone would not find it to be a conundrum.
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  #43  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:06 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
So is the question whether or not "Born again of water" is baptism? Or is the question about baptism being for the remission of sins?
The question is about baptism by itself being for the remission, i.e., the forgiveness, of sins and whether or not God would baptize someone with the Spirit when the record of sins is still against that person. In short, can someone be baptized with the Spirit but at that very moment be hell bound if they have not yet been baptized? I would say no.

Based on the order that Peter gives in Acts 2:38, the prerequisite for receiving the gift of the Spirit is the forgiveness of sins. Since Cornelius received the Spirit, is appears God had already forgiven him. Otherwise, you're stuck with Cornelius supposedly born again spiritually but still being unforgiven and dead in sin. The essence of our salvation and redemption is the forgiveness of sins. It seems impossible that someone can be filled with the Spirit, according to standard Pentecostal teaching, and still be unforgiven, i.e., lost at that very moment. Peter had preached "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins." As Antipas has noted in this thread, repentance (i.e., faith) is the operative term. Without repentance/faith, baptism accomplishes nothing. As long as repentance/faith is present remission of sins can occur. Of course, water baptism is the normal biblical place for someone to repent and confess their faith in Jesus as Lord.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:08 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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You're mischaracterizing my post. I'm not pontificating. Why go there? I disagree with your take. You disagree with mine. I didn't think it would be helpful to go line by line and say, "I disagree." I've dialogued with you a few times before, and it has generally ended up with us not agreeing with each other. Going round and round over every verse has never accomplished anything. I was just trying to shorten the process, since we are, indeed, at an impasse.

Again, here is the implication of the most common Oneness Pentecostal view of the conversion experience: someone may be resurrected in Christ at the moment he receives the Spirit, but if he has not yet been baptized, he never actually died or was buried with Christ to begin with. He is raised with Christ, but now needs to die and be buried with Christ. That doesn't make sense, and I am surprised that anyone would not find it to be a conundrum.
Why did Peter command them to be baptized in Jesus name?
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  #45  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:20 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
You're mischaracterizing my post. I'm not pontificating. Why go there? I disagree with your take. You disagree with mine. I didn't think it would be helpful to go line by line and say, "I disagree." I've dialogued with you a few times before, and it has generally ended up with us not agreeing with each other. Going round and round over every verse has never accomplished anything. I was just trying to shorten the process, since we are, indeed, at an impasse.

Again, here is the implication of the most common Oneness Pentecostal view of the conversion experience: someone may be resurrected in Christ at the moment he receives the Spirit, but if he has not yet been baptized, he never actually died or was buried with Christ to begin with. He is raised with Christ, but now needs to die and be buried with Christ. That doesn't make sense, and I am surprised that anyone would not find it to be a conundrum.
I addressed the issues you raised. You simply ignored the things I said as if I didn't post anything.

So, yes, an impasse it is.
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  #46  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:40 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
I think you answered your own question with the phrase "the remission of sins". Other than being identified with Christ in his death and burial through baptism among other "functions" of baptism. I think you gave the greatest function of baptism and that is simply the remission of sins.

Remission of sins is the greatest soteriological reality in my opinion, keep the understanding simple and the simple will understand.
Unfortunately it gets complex when someone has received the Spirit but has not been baptized. You allude to Rom 6. In the scenario I mention, according to standard Pentecostal teaching on the conversion experience, this person has been resurrected with Christ, though they apparently have never died and been buried with Christ yet since they have not been baptized.

Someone dies and is buried and is raised with Christ by faith. The normal biblical place for this faith to be expressed is water baptism, which is a powerful symbol of what repentance truly is: a dying to self and a turning to Christ in new life. Since baptism is the normal place for saving faith to be expressed, saving activity is often attributed to baptism itself, but contrary to what Catholics and Orthodox teach, there is no saving power in the ceremony itself.
Faith alone gives meaning to the ceremony.

The point is God is not bound by the ceremony. If someone is not going to be led to water baptism first when they come to faith in Christ (as in Cornelius's situation and in my own experience) and are led to seek the baptism of the Spirit first and He gives them this gift, it seems reasonable to understand that God had forgiven their sins in response to their faith/repentance in light of the extenuating circumstances they were put in. Again, this is not the biblical norm, and is not something I would preach, but if you don't think God can possibly forgive sins at faith/repentance, then you have to argue that someone, if they have not been baptized, can still be as lost as they ever were even at the moment they received the Spirit since only baptism brings the forgiveness of sins.

I was baptized in the Spirit many months before I was taught about Jesus' name baptism. During this time, my life was transformed. I grew greatly in the Lord. According to the traditional Pentecostal view, all this doesn't really matter, because I was still going to burn in hell just as much as I was going to before I had received the Spirit because I had not been forgiven in baptism. This is unreasonable, which is why no group in the history of the church besides the largest segment of Oneness Pentecostals has ever taught that you could be filled with the Spirit but remain at that very moment lost and dead in sins.
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  #47  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:30 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I addressed the issues you raised. You simply ignored the things I said as if I didn't post anything.

So, yes, an impasse it is.
From your previous post:
Quote:
Being forgiven but still lost... receiving the Spirit but still lost... are erroneous ways of thinking and speaking, due to separating the unity of conversion into "steps". Common, but erroneous.
They are not erroneous, but are, in fact, the implications of your view of conversion. You cannot escape these implications. If your view is true, then, yes, someone can repent and be baptized and have all their sins forgiven and supposedly be given new life in this (Col 2.13), but, nevertheless, still be lost until he is baptized in the Spirit. Conversely, someone can receive the Spirit and still be lost until they are baptized. These scenarios happen all the time, so the implications of the traditional Pentecostal view of conversion are ever present. I look at the implications and think there must be a better way to understand the biblical data that doesn't open us up to a reductio ad absurdum argument.

The traditional view makes a mess of Paul's metaphor in Rom 6. If someone has only been baptized, he apparently is still dead in the grave though Paul says in Col 2 that he has been made alive when forgiven. Conversely, if he has been baptized in the Spirit but not baptized in water, well, then he has supposedly been raised from the grave, though he has not actually died and been buried yet. This doesn't make sense, which is why this view of conversion is never indisputably taught before Oneness Pentecostals in the 20th century.

I think it's important to note at this point that we do, in fact, have a lot in common in practice. In practice the outcome is the same: we lead people to repent, be baptized in water in Jesus' name, and to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the sign of tongues. But, of course, we understand it differently theologically. Nevertheless, I would regard us as on the same team.
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  #48  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:36 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

The worst handicap in reading, studying, and researching the Bible. Is our own personal experiences in whatever denomination or religion we happen to be affiliated with. It actually hijacks any sort of objective research. Mother Foofoofnick got the Holy Ghost 80 years before she was baptized in Jesus name. Uncle Stickwither came up out of the water speaking in tongues. Sister Nasaldrip would fall backwards everytime she had the pastor pray for her. Everytime Brother Tithemister put a dime in the offering plate he would win the state lotto. Everything from vials of oil on a keychain, to who got what in what order trumps scripture. You aren't saved, you are saved, you might be saved, MeeMaw Willy was saved, she spoke in tongues and never got baptized in Jesus name. She prayed all the time, fasted until the skin feel off her bones, and she was sweeter then a wet bag of Dixie crystals. Who cares, but everyone will write out a 50 page essay complete with Greek, Hebrew and Swahili, and be right, because they will place their own testimony on it as a stamp of final approval. Sorry, but the Bible doesn't care about our personal experiences or perceptions of the world around us. Pentecost is made up of 100 different points of view and opinions. But the Bible doesn't care, it will keep telling the truth whether we like it or not.
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  #49  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:13 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Unfortunately it gets complex when someone has received the Spirit but has not been baptized. You allude to Rom 6. In the scenario I mention, according to standard Pentecostal teaching on the conversion experience, this person has been resurrected with Christ, though they apparently have never died and been buried with Christ yet since they have not been baptized.
[Rom 6:3-4 NASB] 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Paul is just making an analogy. Notice the last part of the last sentence (v4): so as ... so you. The analogy doesn't set an order of salvation, as the testimony of Cornelius explains. The part that is not an analogy is the "baptized into His death", meaning what I posted earlier, that to be part of the blessing of forgiveness of sins you must apply the blood of Jesus, and that's through baptism.

Quote:
Someone dies and is buried and is raised with Christ by faith.
Paul is making an analogy. The point he makes is that as He resurrected from the death, you should walk in newness of life after the forgiveness of your sins through baptism.

Quote:
The point is God is not bound by the ceremony. If someone is not going to be led to water baptism first when they come to faith in Christ (as in Cornelius's situation and in my own experience) and are led to seek the baptism of the Spirit first and He gives them this gift, it seems reasonable to understand that God had forgiven their sins in response to their faith/repentance in light of the extenuating circumstances they were put in. Again, this is not the biblical norm, and is not something I would preach, but if you don't think God can possibly forgive sins at faith/repentance, then you have to argue that someone, if they have not been baptized, can still be as lost as they ever were even at the moment they received the Spirit since only baptism brings the forgiveness of sins.
God gave us a way of salvation, not an order of salvation. He knows your heart, and he is the judge. You must complete the two goals to be saved according to Acts. If you repented, and came to him, at that point he started to guide you into salvation. He completed the gift of the Holy Spirit first on you and guided you to the correct baptism.

"contrite" means broken because of guilt, repentance. The day you decided to humble and repent he looked at you and started the process:

[Psa 51:17 NASB] 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
[Isa 57:15 NASB] 15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell [on] a high and holy place, And [also] with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.
[Isa 66:2 NASB] 2 "For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

You need baptism in Jesus' name to be part of the benefits of the cross, to be participant of the blessing of forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). Of course, you need to come with faith to make it valid. There is no order of salvation, that's not what the Bible teaches. There is a way of salvation. The only "order" is that you need to believe in God and in the gospel, and repent; before the being born again part. The fact that there is no order, doesn't make one part more important than the other, or one part just symbolic and the other one critical. They are both necessary as the Bible teaches it.

Are the people that were taught the triune formula, and never the baptism in the name, saved? What's up with the people that never heard the gospel but were good people and died? It is hard sometimes to understand and accept those cases, but I think the best you can do is to just accept that according to the Bible they are not complete into the truth in the first case, and in the second case they are lost, ... and God is the ultimate judge.
I personally was filled with the Spirit in 1998, and baptized in the triune formula. During all that time I didn't have no doubt I was saved and I had a relationship with God. But then one day I went to a UPCI church without knowing and they grabbed me by the neck and challenged me with the their doctrine. The Spirit confirmed to me that I needed to listen instead of arguing during the meeting, and I obeyed, and was baptized in Jesus' name.
God knows your heart and he is powerful to guide you to all truth. What would've happened if I had died before that happened? well, thankfully, I didn't die.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-14-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:58 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
The question is about baptism by itself being for the remission, i.e., the forgiveness, of sins and whether or not God would baptize someone with the Spirit when the record of sins is still against that person. In short, can someone be baptized with the Spirit but at that very moment be hell bound if they have not yet been baptized? I would say no.

Based on the order that Peter gives in Acts 2:38, the prerequisite for receiving the gift of the Spirit is the forgiveness of sins. Since Cornelius received the Spirit, is appears God had already forgiven him. Otherwise, you're stuck with Cornelius supposedly born again spiritually but still being unforgiven and dead in sin. The essence of our salvation and redemption is the forgiveness of sins. It seems impossible that someone can be filled with the Spirit, according to standard Pentecostal teaching, and still be unforgiven, i.e., lost at that very moment. Peter had preached "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins." As Antipas has noted in this thread, repentance (i.e., faith) is the operative term. Without repentance/faith, baptism accomplishes nothing. As long as repentance/faith is present remission of sins can occur. Of course, water baptism is the normal biblical place for someone to repent and confess their faith in Jesus as Lord.
As long as you are alive, you are not in hell. As human beings that we are, sometimes salvation is a WIP.

An example in the scripture:

[Act 18:24-26 NASB] 24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 26 and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
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