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  #51  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:16 PM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
From your previous post:


They are not erroneous, but are, in fact, the implications of your view of conversion. You cannot escape these implications. If your view is true, then, yes, someone can repent and be baptized and have all their sins forgiven and supposedly be given new life in this (Col 2.13), but, nevertheless, still be lost until he is baptized in the Spirit. Conversely, someone can receive the Spirit and still be lost until they are baptized. These scenarios happen all the time, so the implications of the traditional Pentecostal view of conversion are ever present. I look at the implications and think there must be a better way to understand the biblical data that doesn't open us up to a reductio ad absurdum argument.

The traditional view makes a mess of Paul's metaphor in Rom 6. If someone has only been baptized, he apparently is still dead in the grave though Paul says in Col 2 that he has been made alive when forgiven. Conversely, if he has been baptized in the Spirit but not baptized in water, well, then he has supposedly been raised from the grave, though he has not actually died and been buried yet. This doesn't make sense, which is why this view of conversion is never indisputably taught before Oneness Pentecostals in the 20th century.

I think it's important to note at this point that we do, in fact, have a lot in common in practice. In practice the outcome is the same: we lead people to repent, be baptized in water in Jesus' name, and to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the sign of tongues. But, of course, we understand it differently theologically. Nevertheless, I would regard us as on the same team.
Wouldn’t you view Peter “commanding/giving orders” as a strong indication that he viewed the conversion experience incomplete without all elements involved, i.e., repent, baptism, infilling of HG? Commanding is pretty emphatic, IMO.

“So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.” Acts 10:48
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  #52  
Old 05-14-2019, 01:03 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Regarding Col 2:12-14:

[Col 2:12-14 NASB] 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Paul is talking about baptism and the effect of baptism. He was re-explaining baptism to already saved people.

This doesn't invalidate the fact that you need to be born of the Spirit as well to complete salvation.

In the New Testament, you can find expressions that put emphasis on one thing regarding a subject by excluding the rest, in function of the audience and the topic of discussion. For instance, you can find things like this:

[Rom 10:9 NASB] 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Does it means that if you believe you are saved automatically? No, Paul was making a point of an important part regarding salvation. Other verses of the Bible tell you that you need more than that.

[Act 17:30-31 NASB] 30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all [people] everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Did Pau forget the other parts of the salvation? No, he was putting the emphasis on repentance. Again, other verses of the Bible tell you that you need more than that.

Same here:

[Jhn 3:16 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Did John forget that Jesus said that you must be born of water and the Spirit? Same thing here.


The Bible was written by human expressing God's inspired message in their way, using their own speech styles, and techniques of the time. It wasn't written by philosophers or mathematicians trying to be overly explicative on every statement and term they use. Because of it, to understand doctrine deeply, it is important to pull all the verses you can, and then find patterns, and principles and get a full picture. I hope this helps.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-14-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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  #53  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:56 PM
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

The goal of the Gospel is eternal life. Eternal life is immortality with Christ in Paradise. This takes us back to Eden. After Adam sinned, he and Eve were removed from the Garden. What was God's main concern?

That, in their state, they should eat from the Tree of Life. Why would God care about it? What bad would have come from it all if Adam and Eve had just remained in the Garden, went up to the Tree of Life and eaten from it, even though He had just condemned and cursed them?

Would it have not just saved them and made all well? Wouldn't the Tree of Life have just fixed the sin issue and made the Garden available to them again? Why did God have to bar them from the one thing (Tree of Life) that would have seemingly saved the day and brought an end to the catastrophe of eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

If you can discern the answer to all of that, you can understand better why simply receiving the Holy Spirit but not being correctly, Biblically immersed, isn't enough, either.
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  #54  
Old 05-15-2019, 01:19 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Great post Votive!
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  #55  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:09 PM
Ehud Ehud is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
The goal of the Gospel is eternal life. Eternal life is immortality with Christ in Paradise. This takes us back to Eden. After Adam sinned, he and Eve were removed from the Garden. What was God's main concern?

That, in their state, they should eat from the Tree of Life. Why would God care about it? What bad would have come from it all if Adam and Eve had just remained in the Garden, went up to the Tree of Life and eaten from it, even though He had just condemned and cursed them?

Would it have not just saved them and made all well? Wouldn't the Tree of Life have just fixed the sin issue and made the Garden available to them again? Why did God have to bar them from the one thing (Tree of Life) that would have seemingly saved the day and brought an end to the catastrophe of eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

If you can discern the answer to all of that, you can understand better why simply receiving the Holy Spirit but not being correctly, Biblically immersed, isn't enough, either.
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Originally Posted by Graham View Post
Great post Votive!
Was it really? I'll take the loss on this one and say I'm too dense to follow. Could either of you explain this to me?
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  #56  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:51 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
But, even if you don’t believe that baptism is for the forgiveness of sin, there is so much more to baptism than just obeying a command.
I'm hesitant to say that baptism isn't for the remission of sins. I'm willing to say that baptism in and of itself only makes one wet. The operative function of the remission of sins that takes place in baptism is in conjunction with one's repentance. Else one could be baptized for the remission of sins... before repentance. lol

Beyond this, baptism symbolizes our burial with Christ. And it does symbolize our having our sins washed away. It also symbolizes new birth. And it is said to be our NT circumcision. I'm sure many more knowledgeable than me could go even deeper.

Baptism is definitely a very serious aspect of biblical Christian faith. I'd argue that if one refuses to be water baptized, they've clearly not truly repented or have a saving understanding of the Gospel.
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  #57  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:16 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Wouldn’t you view Peter “commanding/giving orders” as a strong indication that he viewed the conversion experience incomplete without all elements involved, i.e., repent, baptism, infilling of HG? Commanding is pretty emphatic, IMO.

“So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.” Acts 10:48
You go sister!!!
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  #58  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:40 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Hmmm...

If one can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to the remission/forgiveness of sins, then we have a theological problem.

Clearly it is possible for something to take place prior to water baptism.

I offer this possibility...

We read that Abraham was justified by faith alone...
Romans 4:1-3
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
In Romans 2, Paul had stated that a man is justified by faith apart from the Law. However, I want to draw attention to the reality of justification being by faith...
Romans 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Regarding believers Paul writes in Romans 5...
Romans 5:1
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
I have long agonized over the fact that Apostolics do not have a systematic theology on salvation. Since we lack such a systematic theology, we're left with these questions always popping up and no sufficient answer to provide that is biblically grounded in the doctrines of grace.

Here, I turn my attention to the doctrine of Justification. Justification is repeatedly stated to be the result of saving faith.

So I ask this...

Is it possible that one's faith and repentance, prior to baptism, allows one to become Justified in the eyes of God, thereby opening up the possibility of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is being "born of spirit" (Regeneration)???

This would explain why it is possible for some to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. They are "Justified" by faith.

This is not to say that baptism isn't essential. It is to say that Justification begins at saving faith and repentance... and then continues throughout the salvation experience as one is water baptized (sins officially Remitted) and filled with the Holy Spirit (Regeneration)... or even if one is filled with the Holy Spirit first and is then water baptized afterwards.

What is transpiring when one is filled with the Spirit prior to water baptism is then: Justification, Regeneration, and Remittance of Sin. Whereas typically the process would have been Justification, Remittance of Sin, and then Regeneration. This would mean that Justification allows one to attain both Regeneration and the Remittance of Sin in any order.

Thoughts???

Last edited by Antipas; 05-15-2019 at 03:44 PM.
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  #59  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:32 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antipas View Post
Hmmm...

If one can receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to the remission/forgiveness of sins, then we have a theological problem.

Clearly it is possible for something to take place prior to water baptism.

I offer this possibility...

We read that Abraham was justified by faith alone...
Romans 4:1-3
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
In Romans 2, Paul had stated that a man is justified by faith apart from the Law. However, I want to draw attention to the reality of justification being by faith...
Romans 3:28
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Regarding believers Paul writes in Romans 5...
Romans 5:1
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
I have long agonized over the fact that Apostolics do not have a systematic theology on salvation. Since we lack such a systematic theology, we're left with these questions always popping up and no sufficient answer to provide that is biblically grounded in the doctrines of grace.

Here, I turn my attention to the doctrine of Justification. Justification is repeatedly stated to be the result of saving faith.

So I ask this...

Is it possible that one's faith and repentance, prior to baptism, allows one to become Justified in the eyes of God, thereby opening up the possibility of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is being "born of spirit" (Regeneration)???

This would explain why it is possible for some to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. They are "Justified" by faith.

This is not to say that baptism isn't essential. It is to say that Justification begins at saving faith and repentance... and then continues throughout the salvation experience as one is water baptized (sins officially Remitted) and filled with the Holy Spirit (Regeneration)... or even if one is filled with the Holy Spirit first and is then water baptized afterwards.

What is transpiring when one is filled with the Spirit prior to water baptism is then: Justification, Regeneration, and Remittance of Sin. Whereas typically the process would have been Justification, Remittance of Sin, and then Regeneration. This would mean that Justification allows one to attain both Regeneration and the Remittance of Sin in any order.

Thoughts???
Good points.

Quote:
water baptized (sins officially Remitted)
This:
"[Col 2:12-14 NASB] 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

More than "officially", I would say "committed sins actually washed away".

You can be justified (or rendered just) after you believed and repented, but the committed sins still need to be washed away, paid, forgiven (like in debt, not like in relationship), removed from your account to be participant of the promise.

This is an observation for comments:
According to Hebrew, the sacrifices in the Old Testament didn't actually pay for the sins of the people, but it was just pushing the sins further. They were just shadows of Christ. However, many of them approached God by faith according to Hebrew, and many also were filled with and led by the Spirit.
They did not get baptized, but for this age we are asked to do so to participate of the salvation that comes from the cross.
After you are justified by faith, the Spirit can come to you with full power at any time, and the baptism is the other step necessary to forgive the actual debt for good.

Last edited by coksiw; 05-15-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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  #60  
Old 05-15-2019, 04:57 PM
Antipas Antipas is offline
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Re: The Timing of Cornelius’ Baptism of the Holy G

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Good points.



This:
"[Col 2:12-14 NASB] 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

More than "officially", I would say "committed sins actually washed away".

You can be justified (or rendered just) after you believed and repented, but the committed sins still need to be washed away, paid, forgiven (like in debt, not like in relationship), removed from your account to be participant of the promise.

This is an observation for comments:
According to Hebrew, the sacrifices in the Old Testament didn't actually pay for the sins of the people, but it was just pushing the sins further. They were just shadows of Christ. However, many of them approached God by faith according to Hebrew, and many also were filled with and led by the Spirit.
They did not get baptized, but for this age we are asked to do so to participate of the salvation that comes from the cross.
After you are justified by faith, the Spirit can come to you with full power at any time, and the baptism is the other step necessary to forgive the actual debt for good.
And so we are justified by faith.
Cleansed in water baptism.
And regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Justification allows one to enter in and experience the fulness of actually being born again.

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