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  #311  
Old 08-30-2022, 11:40 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Good Samaritan,
He is showing correctly what the Bible says. What your contextualization to modern's time is another thing.

You have to take into account that we are having this discussion because we live in a wealthy country where giving a decent salary to a full time minister in one congregation may be affordable. In the first century setting, what they could afford was probably just that: food, shelter, some clothing, for travelers, and that's it.

Regarding non-traveler teachers in your local congregation, you bless them by sharing with them your blessings: Gal 6:6 NKJV - (6) Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches. That being said, that verse applies to all teachers, not just the pastors. I think it is good that the students of a discipleship teaching or those that reached salvation through a Bible study, take out for dinner their teachers or something to show thankfulness.


This is a quote from the book:
Making It Work: The Case for Bivocational Ministry
by Gary Erickson

Available here: https://pentecostalpublishing.com/pr...ional-ministry
Dorr states, “Most clergymen in the first few centuries supported themselves.”3 The second-century Didache reflects the thinking of that time: “When the apostle goeth forth, let him take nothing but bread, [to suffice] till he reach his lodging: if he ask money he is a false prophet.”4 Clearly, bivocationalism was the normal practice in the early church.5
You appear offended, but they are speaking true. I have personally no problem with a full time salary to some teachers, especially those focused on ministry training, if it is affordable for the congregation, but in reality it usually comes with a lot of coercion. I have personally no problem with a missionary having full time support from the USA, especially in other countries. I love the fact that the missionary support they receive from the USA in the UCPI is not based on tithing but from voluntary support of churches.

But again, we are having this discussion because we live in a wealthy economy, keep that in mind.
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  #312  
Old 08-30-2022, 12:26 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

I am not offended. I am just trying make the point the New Testament church is a Spirit filled church guided by the Spirit of God. We learn from principles in the scriptures, but applications will ever be changing. This is a morality issue (a workman is worthy of his hire). If a person is sacrificing his time, his livelihood, and often his family to help you be saved and grow in the Lord. It is only the right thing to do to honour that. I am not talking about Cadillacs, mansions, vacation getaways. I am talking about providing a moderate income that is for the necessities, so the minister is able to labor in the word and in prayer.

Even in poor countries, they probably try to show support in the ways they can. The point being made goes beyond anti tithing, but the point that only food can be a biblical offering isn’t IMO what Paul is suggesting in any of the scriptures that is being exegeted. The principles I read, teach us to support where support is needed and not abuse or take advantage of one another. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about food, money, or anything else. There is a need to support ministry, unless they just hate what is the modern day pasor. I can say this alike Paul, I am not saying this so it is done to me. I say it because it is what is fair.

Right now I am typing with grease on my hands and cuts on my arms from working on cars at local mechanic shop. I am not lazy, nor am I above physical labor. I will continue to labor as long as the Lord permits and bring the word in the church, nursing homes, and anywhere else God will open the door. Again the treasure I seek is in heaven.
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  #313  
Old 08-30-2022, 03:09 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post

Right now I am typing with grease on my hands and cuts on my arms from working on cars at local mechanic shop.
You ever see a case where all 4 wheels are about 3/4 inch further to the passenger side than the driver side? NOT caused by mismatched wheel backspace?
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  #314  
Old 08-30-2022, 04:23 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
You ever see a case where all 4 wheels are about 3/4 inch further to the passenger side than the driver side? NOT caused by mismatched wheel backspace?
Is this a serious question?
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  #315  
Old 08-30-2022, 10:33 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Is this a serious question?
I guess not.
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  #316  
Old 08-30-2022, 11:25 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
You ever see a case where all 4 wheels are about 3/4 inch further to the passenger side than the driver side? NOT caused by mismatched wheel backspace?
If this is a serious question, a person would have to use some kind of custom spacers are some after market wheels to change the track width. I am familiar with alignment issues, but I have never heard of a car’s track width being shifted over.

I work at a automotive repair shop and we don’t do kind of body or frame repair stuff. Maybe a question for a body shop?

Last edited by good samaritan; 08-30-2022 at 11:30 PM.
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  #317  
Old 08-31-2022, 03:28 AM
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votivesoul votivesoul is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
I have a totally different view on what it means to rightly divide the word.
And?

Quote:
This is comical. Does it even matter what the wages are? Food, raiment, lodging, transportation, or money for any of those things?
Yes, it matters what the wages are, because the words of the Apostle, as given to us by God as inspired Holy Scripture, have their intended meaning. The onus is upon us to correctly understand and interpret those words in their proper context.

Quote:
This thread has went from disproving tithe teaching to shirking off responsibilities to support those who labor in the gospel. The thing about ministers of the gospel, they are supposed to be God called. Whether or not the consensus on AFF feel like they should support ministry, God is the one who gives those charges (1 Corinthians 9:7), and God will take care that he receives the necessary wages (2 Corinthians 11:8).
Pro-tithers always accuse anti-tithers of shirking off their responsibility to support those who labor in the Gospel. Point to one place, any place, anywhere in this thread, or anywhere on the entire forum for that matter, where anyone has ever advocated not supporting the ministry.

It's already been shown that food, clothing, shelter, and help with travelling expenses for itinerant apostles/evangelists (not local prophets and teachers in residence) is supported by Paul's teaching, and yet, when we stay within that structure, we are accused of shirking responsibility?

Quote:
So the rightly dividing of the word is: “don’t give anything but food rations to the preacher while he is active duty involved in ministry”?
No. The local prophet and teacher in residence, what you call "the preacher" isn't entitled to the assistance Paul demarcated in 1 Corinthians 9. Itinerant apostles/evangelists who move from place to place, are entitled to that assistance.

Quote:
As many times as I have read these scriptures I never realized that Paul was only allowed to receive food rations for his labor in the gospel.

Philippians 4:10-13
10......But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
11......Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12...... I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13......I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Paul's letter to the Philippians is one of his "prison letters", written while he was under house arrest in Rome. While Paul was a prisoner, a man named Epaphroditus was there in Rome with him, working himself night and day, even to the point of total exhaustion, to afford Paul a rented house so he wouldn't end up in a Roman dungeon. The Philippians heard about it after Epaphroditus arrived on Paul's behalf and were saddened that a cherished minister who had been with them was sick/near to death. The bishops and deacons of the church at Philippi then realized that they could supply Paul with some financial aid to help pay for the rent for the house he was staying in, and so, sent those funds, by way of Epaphroditus, which Paul graciously received, even though he was prepared to lose the rented house and end up in a dungeon as he waited for his trial before Caesar.

Previously, the Philippian church had been assisting him on his travels but gave up their help when he was arrested in Jerusalem, thinking that what had befallen Paul indicated he was out of the will of God/was being punished for some sin, or etc., and so, left off helping him and his team. It was only after Epaphroditus came to them with the letter we now include in our New Testament canon, did the Philippians realize their error and decided to once again assist Paul as their founding Apostle (not local prophet and teacher in residence).

See:

Acts 28:23 and 30 (ESV),

23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers...

30 He lived there two whole years at his own expense, and welcomed all who came to him...

The word "expense" above is translated from the Greek word μισθώματι (misthōmati), from μίσθωμα (misthóma ), meaning "a rented house"

https://biblehub.com/greek/3410.htm

Philippians 1:1 (ESV),

1 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,

To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons:

Philippians 1:7 (ESV),

7 It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel...

Philippians 1:12-13 (ESV),

12 I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, 13 so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard and to all the rest that my imprisonment is for Christ.

Philippians 2:25-30 (ESV),

25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26 for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.

The word "service" above comes from λειτουργίας (leitourgias), and means "a charitable gift", or "a public service one undertakes at his own expense".

See: https://biblehub.com/greek/3009.htm

(continued...)
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Last edited by votivesoul; 08-31-2022 at 03:31 AM.
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  #318  
Old 08-31-2022, 03:29 AM
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votivesoul votivesoul is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

(...continued)

Quote:
I personally believe Paul ministered to generous and hospitable people who treated him like royalty...
One such example was the people of Thessalonica:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV),

9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you...

And why do you suppose Paul and his team's reception at Thessalonica was so well earned?

1 Thessalonians 2:5 and 9 (ESV),

5 For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed—God is witness.

9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.

Quote:
...and I believe there where other times when Paul didn’t know where he was going to get his next meal. Bottom line is that God provided. Also, it is certain that Paul was not working a 40+ hour weekly public job and raising a family on his missionary journey.
Paul wrote, as I shared above, that he and his team worked night and day, and yet, you think it is certain he didn't work 40+ hours per week? Don't you know he was a leatherworker who found opportunity to labor with his own hands while travelling abroad?

Acts 18:1-3 (ESV),

1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, 3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.

1 Corinthians 4:11 (ESV),

11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, 12 and we labor, working with our own hands.

Quote:
Rightly diving the word of God doesn’t mean that we are legalist, and that we must have precise and exact applications of a 1st century culture in a 21st century culture. It means that we are able to use principles and adapt applications to situations that are relevant to us today.
Attempting to correctly understand and interpret and apply the Word of God according to its 1st century context is legalism?

Quote:
So you are saying it is unbiblical to receive monetary offerings in the NT church? Have you got any examples on how we can apply that today? I would like to know what do you think is the biblical way to implement your views, because I am confused about the way it would go over for the saints as well as ministers.
I never said it is "unbiblical to receive monetary offerings". Where did you get that?

Several of the churches Paul founded raised a large sum of money for the saints in Judea and in Jerusalem (Romans 15:26). And Paul received money from the Philippians, as I explained above.

The question isn't whether or not money can be given and shared. The question is whether or not local prophets and teachers in residence are allowed by the Scriptures to receive an income in order to forbear working in any secular capacity, and whether or not that income should be raised by the local church through tithes. To both questions, the answer is no.

For the itinerant apostle or evangelist, Scripturally, the NT shows only the following: food, clothing, shelter/place to sleep/lodge, and funds for travelling along the way. And yet, Paul left us with an even better example: vocational craft while ministering.

Quote:
We live in a post modern world.
And God cares about that???

Quote:
Paul didn’t have Christian temples, public utilities, sound and media, etc….
You're correct. Paul didn't have any of those things, and yet, who, with those things, has done more than he?

Quote:
The principle doctrines never change, but applications have changed with every passing generation.
So why make any effort to replicate 1st NT century doctrine, practice, and experience? Or do we just pick and choose and make it up as we go along? Thousands of denominations all in contention and disunity with each other. How do you suppose it got to be like this? By attempting to apply the Scriptures some other way every passing generation.

Quote:
I haven’t tried to put anything into the text at all, but I only seek how to apply it in my life today.
You apply it no more and no less than how the 1st century church applied the text. Adding to and taking away from the Word, isn't just inserting or removing lines of text from the Bible, it's about adding new applications, or taking away the applications that already exist in the Word.

Quote:
I guess we should close and sell all of the church buildings and give money to charity. Everyone in ministry needs to go get a job and just gather at a saints’ house, because there is not a biblical model for a church building in the Bible?
Correct, if you want to go by the Book, Chapter, and Verse. If you want to do things your own way???

Quote:
You have categorized practically everyone in modern church ministry as a hireling.
And what do you suppose that says about "practically everyone in modern church ministry"? All I did, is give the definition of the term.

Quote:
Being a hireling is determined by intents.
No, being a hireling is determined by the definition of the word. It doesn't matter what anyone's intent is. If they are paid clergy, they are a hireling. That's the meaning of the term Jesus used in the Gospels.

Quote:
Sure there are probably some in it for the money, but in my circles it is sacrificial. If it was a pay based occupation then I would have quit a long time ago because I have never been so abused on a job for so little before lol. (The reward is Heaven)
You ever think at least part of the reason you and/or your circles are so abused is because you bring it upon yourself?

Quote:
It isn’t like this only in the U.S. I have supported many ministries in South Africa, Philippines, etc… some of them may be a poor country, but every instance I am aware of, they feel like the preacher of the gospel needs to be honored with whatever resources they are able to give.
I wrote what I wrote because I know Mike Blume is Canadian and ministers there.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 08-31-2022 at 03:36 AM.
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  #319  
Old 08-31-2022, 04:07 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
(...continued)



One such example was the people of Thessalonica:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 (ESV),

9 For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you...

And why do you suppose Paul and his team's reception at Thessalonica was so well earned?

1 Thessalonians 2:5 and 9 (ESV),

5 For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed—God is witness.

9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.



Paul wrote, as I shared above, that he and his team worked night and day, and yet, you think it is certain he didn't work 40+ hours per week? Don't you know he was a leatherworker who found opportunity to labor with his own hands while travelling abroad?

Acts 18:1-3 (ESV),

1 After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. And he went to see them, 3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them and worked, for they were tentmakers by trade.

1 Corinthians 4:11 (ESV),

11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, 12 and we labor, working with our own hands.



Attempting to correctly understand and interpret and apply the Word of God according to its 1st century context is legalism?



I never said it is "unbiblical to receive monetary offerings". Where did you get that?

Several of the churches Paul founded raised a large sum of money for the saints in Judea and in Jerusalem (Romans 15:26). And Paul received money from the Philippians, as I explained above.

The question isn't whether or not money can be given and shared. The question is whether or not local prophets and teachers in residence are allowed by the Scriptures to receive an income in order to forbear working in any secular capacity, and whether or not that income should be raised by the local church through tithes. To both questions, the answer is no.

For the itinerant apostle or evangelist, Scripturally, the NT shows only the following: food, clothing, shelter/place to sleep/lodge, and funds for travelling along the way. And yet, Paul left us with an even better example: vocational craft while ministering.



And God cares about that???



You're correct. Paul didn't have any of those things, and yet, who, with those things, has done more than he?



So why make any effort to replicate 1st NT century doctrine, practice, and experience? Or do we just pick and choose and make it up as we go along? Thousands of denominations all in contention and disunity with each other. How do you suppose it got to be like this? By attempting to apply the Scriptures some other way every passing generation.



You apply it no more and no less than how the 1st century church applied the text. Adding to and taking away from the Word, isn't just inserting or removing lines of text from the Bible, it's about adding new applications, or taking away the applications that already exist in the Word.



Correct, if you want to go by the Book, Chapter, and Verse. If you want to do things your own way???



And what do you suppose that says about "practically everyone in modern church ministry"? All I did, is give the definition of the term.



No, being a hireling is determined by the definition of the word. It doesn't matter what anyone's intent is. If they are paid clergy, they are a hireling. That's the meaning of the term Jesus used in the Gospels.



You ever think at least part of the reason you and/or your circles are so abused is because you bring it upon yourself?



I wrote what I wrote because I know Mike Blume is Canadian and ministers there.


Excellent two-part post.
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  #320  
Old 08-31-2022, 07:47 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

To not muzzle the ox that treadeth the corn, is a principle that should be applied to everyone from the janitor to the local pastor. There are a host of scriptures on here about supporting ministers who labor in the gospel, but they have been scrupulously dissected and picked apart to the point there is no longer a practical application.
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