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  #251  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:24 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
You are very disingenuously referring to the "church" as only being constituted by those who believe like you on this issue.
no i dont see it as the essential Christian doctrine, although is important i dont aks everyone i met hey do you believe re-marriage".
and i i dont speak for "my" church home, i speak general for all Churches i know or i have visit etc.
why is this strange?
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  #252  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:03 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
no i dont see it as the essential Christian doctrine, although is important i dont aks everyone i met hey do you believe re-marriage".
and i i dont speak for "my" church home, i speak general for all Churches i know or i have visit etc.
why is this strange?
You may have already covered this, but what country are you referring to and what church?
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  #253  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:02 PM
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Antipas View Post
I think the Esaias' point was that just as a betrothed woman is called a "wife", sexual unfaithfulness during betrothal is called "adultery" in the OT.


It does seem to be treated as such.

Which ought to inform our understanding of the "except it be for fornication" statement.

I do not know of any place in scripture where marital infidelity is called fornication instead of adultery (in reference to actual human marriages, as metaphorical usages relating to God and Israel cover a wide gamut not ordinarily applicable to regular, run of the mill marriage).
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  #254  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:13 PM
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
yes he meant that ,but is not truth. In the Old testament passage when a betrothed woman has sex with an other and then when she marries he discover she is not virgin is called Fornication (because she did before the wedding)
amen.
If a betrothed woman has relations with another man prior to the wedding, the Law treats it as adultery.

Of course, if she is not caught, then there is no charge of adultery, so it must be classed as fornication (relations with someone other than her husband, rape not included). Which means if a man betroths a wife, and then discovers she is not a virgin, OR discovers their marriage is unlawful (incest, forbidden lineage, etc), then she can be put away (without a bill of divorcement, because the whole thing was a fraud to begin with.

Now, if a man betroths a woman, and if either before or after the wedding, she has relations with someone else, it is treated by the Law as adultery. In order to get a divorce, the bet din or local court was involved, was it not? He would have to state the reason, in this case "adultery".

If he could prove adultery, then she and the other man would be stoned to death. There wouldn't be a divorce. If he could not prove it, then he stood in danger of being stoned to death for false accusation in a capital case. The only other option is the Test of Bitter Water.

In any case, I do not see adultery being recognized as a valid ground for a divorce under the Law.

Now, in situations where the Law is not fully enforced, divorce might be substituted for capital punishment of an adulterer, which is how Jews and Christians have historically done it in societies where adultery wasn't a capital offense punished by the State.
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  #255  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:15 PM
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

And, do we have information showing the standard Judean practice for a man who discovers his betrothed is not, in fact, a virgin?
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  #256  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:01 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If a betrothed woman has relations with another man prior to the wedding, the Law treats it as adultery.

Of course, if she is not caught, then there is no charge of adultery, so it must be classed as fornication (relations with someone other than her husband, rape not included). Which means if a man betroths a wife, and then discovers she is not a virgin, OR discovers their marriage is unlawful (incest, forbidden lineage, etc), then she can be put away (without a bill of divorcement, because the whole thing was a fraud to begin with.

Now, if a man betroths a woman, and if either before or after the wedding, she has relations with someone else, it is treated by the Law as adultery. In order to get a divorce, the bet din or local court was involved, was it not? He would have to state the reason, in this case "adultery".

If he could prove adultery, then she and the other man would be stoned to death. There wouldn't be a divorce. If he could not prove it, then he stood in danger of being stoned to death for false accusation in a capital case. The only other option is the Test of Bitter Water.

In any case, I do not see adultery being recognized as a valid ground for a divorce under the Law.

Now, in situations where the Law is not fully enforced, divorce might be substituted for capital punishment of an adulterer, which is how Jews and Christians have historically done it in societies where adultery wasn't a capital offense punished by the State.
Quote:
]If a betrothed woman has relations with another man prior to the wedding, the Law treats it as adultery.
Νο! is not called adultery ,it is called fornication (see the text it has "because she fornicated the house of her husband)
Deutτ.22¨¨20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
*"to play the whore" is the verve porneuo from which comes the word pornia, (whore means porne). So is called fornication

fornication is always when anything like this happens : 24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. *when ever you see whore means porne, all words that are translated whore, etc. is pornia , the Greek text always calls "sje is with child by her fornication)

(i will read the rest of your post latter) thank you.
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  #257  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:16 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
And, do we have information showing the standard Judean practice for a man who discovers his betrothed is not, in fact, a virgin?
yes two possibilities :
deut.22: 20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
and the secpnd was what Joseph thought tio do to Mary when he discovers she was pregnant before marriage.


Mow look here" Jesus was not speaking for adultery but neither for that kind of fornication because both were punished to death.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Now fornication is the only reason to put away without be stoned. (fornication covers also all unlawful marriages. For example a man who us married with his sister is not a valid marriage, therefore is obligated to put her away, like the Corinthian man who lived with his father`s wife)
22: 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
but is not obligated to marry him:
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.2
here we have fornication and is the only reason for brake up this relationship and put her or him away or like Herodes who had his brothers wife! till he is dead was not permitted to Herodes to marry her, it was called adultery and fornication becaise was never a valid marriage.
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  #258  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:51 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
You may have already covered this, but what country are you referring to and what church?
Greece but i also have contact with USA, Latin America Jamaica One Church One Lord (one body and one Spirit brother)
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  #259  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:18 AM
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
Νο! is not called adultery ,it is called fornication (see the text it has "because she fornicated the house of her husband)
Deut 22:

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

If a betrothed woman is discovered to not be a virgin, then she is executed for being a whore. There is no divorce. If he is giving a false accusation, he is chastised (usually means beaten with rods in public). He is forbidden from divorcing her afterwards.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

A betrothed woman who has relations with another man is executed (along with the man) because "he hath humbled his neighbor's wife", which is adultery. There is no divorce.

Adultery is grounds for execution, and messing with a betrothed woman is adultery, she is classified as a WIFE.

So, my assertion is proved, book chapter and verse.
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  #260  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:11 PM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Adultery vs Fornication

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Deut 22:

13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Quote:
If a betrothed woman is discovered to not be a virgin, then she is executed for being a whore. There is no divorce. If he is giving a false accusation, he is chastised (usually means beaten with rods in public). He is forbidden from divorcing her afterwards.
i did not said that there is a divorce, i said that she was stoned .and that whore is fornication , ahe fornicate before the wedding.Jesus did not spoke about that because that was not a reason for divorce.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Quote:
A betrothed woman who has relations with another man is executed (along with the man) because "he hath humbled his neighbor's wife", which is adultery. There is no divorce.
Yes and she is stoned to death too

Quote:
Adultery is grounds for execution, and messing with a betrothed woman is adultery, she is classified as a WIFE.
My point was that Jersus did not spoke neither for adultery neither for a non-virgin wife
Quote:
So, my assertion is proved, book chapter and verse.
did you read my post? please read it because you did not understood me
my point was that Jesus did not spoke about Adultery or a non-virgin wife , those two are stoned till death and no divorce.Only FORNICATION between non married persons were not punished to death!
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: 21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
and the second was what Joseph thought tio do to Mary when he discovers she was pregnant before marriage.

now look here" Jesus was not speaking for adultery but neither for that kind of fornication because both were punished to death.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Now fornication is the only reason to put away without be stoned. (fornication covers also all unlawful marriages. For example a man who us married with his sister is not a valid marriage, therefore is obligated to put her away, like the Corinthian man who lived with his father`s wife)
22: 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
but is not obligated to marry him:
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.2
here we have fornication and is the only reason for brake up this relationship and put her or him away or like Herodes who had his brothers wife! till he is dead was not permitted to Herodes to marry her, it was called adultery and fornication becaise was never a valid marriage.[/QUOTE]

Last edited by peter83; 05-15-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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