Are Trinitarians Saved?

[Strict Baptist]

If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit. The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism. However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest; it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD). Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost? Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?

[consapente89]

I believe the answer is something like....

They're as lost as 2 boys kissin.

[Amanah]

or maybe

John 8:24 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

[consapente89]

Originally Posted by Amanah

or maybe

John 8:24 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

That too!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

If I understand partialism aright, the Oneness view of the divinity is that Jesus is the one deity who manifests as Father, Word or Son and the Sacred Spirit.

It is more accurate to say that the one God has revealed himself to mankind as Father, Word, and Spirit. The Word became flesh in the Son. The Spirit that indwells the believer is the Union of the Father and Son.


The analogy of a father who is simultaneously a son and a husband incorrectly by some imprecise Trinitarians is a description of modalism.

Trinitarian has modalistic features. It is inescapable.


However, none of these dimensions can simultaneously manifest;


Oneness affirms that these manifestations of God are simultaneous.



it is a modification of the fourth and fifth century excommunicated Nœtians, Sabellians, Praxeans and the beliefs of Theodoret (190 AD).


Based on what these men are purported to have believed, the Oneness view is incompatible with their beliefs.


Thus, it is obviously not the classic doctrine of the sacred triad, who like the musical term (though a poor reflection of it) are three subsistences in one indivisible person, equal in power and glory, identical in essence. Oneness denies this subsistency.


This is a doctrine that developed over time. There are dozens of different versions of it. You are rare in that you refer to the entire Trinity as "one indivisible person". Most Trinitarians I know would reserve the term "person" for the "substinces". And while we might not use the term "subsistences", we do not deny the distinction of the some from the Father.

Herein lies the question -- do Oneness believers think Trinitarians are Christians or do they adhere to the thought of the UPCI manual that we are lost?

Nothing in the UPCI manual says that Trinitarians are lost. You should not repeat disinformation. Most Oneness I know do not believe a perfect understanding of the Godhead is require for salvation. Thus, Trinitarians are not "lost" simply for embracing that term. There are many self-styled Trinitarians whose views of God are identical to mine. We are saved by grace through faith, not by a possessing a perfect explanation for God's unique existence.


Interestingly, that question was asked by Dr Martin in the 1985 Oneness debate on the Ankenberg show. If memory serves, Dr Urshan answered God knew who is lost, but Martin (who I don't endorse) indicated he, who was then the UPCI General Superintendent, had copped out on UPCI literature. What do you think?

I suggest you check-out the writings of Dr. Daniel Seagraves concerning the recent dialog held between Trinitarian and Oneness Pentecostals that he was a part of. This is not 1985. You mention only Urshan (who was not a SDr that I know of), but ignore Robert Sabin, who was also involved.

[Strict Baptist]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.

Please cite in the 2017 manual where all Trinitarians are declared "lost". Thanks.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.

You are not looking for opinions, either.
You are just looking for a fight.

[robogreg_2000]

The boys may be brothers!!!!!!! You don't know! You may be lost for judging for all we know! Make sure YOU make heaven YOUR home!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Strict Baptist

I'm quite well aware of the year, but referenced this because I have never received a straight answer from antitrinitarians of sundry stripes. Some say no, most say "no" in the most vicious terms, some refuse to answer, some are altogether ignorant, some have a view that no human soul is capable of understanding the divinity per Psalm 131 or 136 as a thing too high for mankind to grasp.

I honestly wonder if most modalists have ever bothered to read a work on the triad. Like most other antitrinitarians, it seems to me to be such that they take at face value what they are told toto cælo from whatever authority, even if incorrect. If I had a dollar for all the literally identical hackneyed, frequently false arguments antitrinitarians use, often stealing from one another without credit, there would never be another bill to pay! Personally, it is revealing to be likened to homosexuals or heathen being neither. The grace shown often appears one-sided, and not on the antitrinitarian part...

I possess the 2017 UPCI manual. It declares, particularly in its position papers, lost all who do not accept its modified Sabellianism. If it believes in a literal hell, there is no stretch of the imagination to where it declares all to go who reject or never hear its message. Interestingly, it steals the exact wording and format of the Assemblies of God's documents over a century after is excommunication by the Assemblies. I could easily level against you the charge of disinformation because Trinitarian theology is not partialism; we affirm personhood. You do not if I have properly represented so-deemed Jesus-Only teaching.

Your personal view seems to call the corporate godhead a "person". Most Trinitarians call only the "subsistences" persons. "One what, three who's" is the current popular phraseology. As for the "Jesus Only" teaching, it does not exist. The term actually was invented by our detractors to describe the way we baptize, not to describe our view of God. Actually, you referring to God as one person and three subsistence sounds more Oneness than Trinitarian! Curious.

I reiterate I am studying Oneness Pentecostalism because I have no experience with it after 21 years in mainline Pentecostalism. Frankly, the responses 20 years ago from your camp are unchanged toward trinitarians despite being an unbeliever until 2009, wholly ignorant of the issue as a child, save that they were supposed to be wrong and unable to join the church, though welcome therein. Perhaps you ought to ask the UPCI headquarters in Missouri why it lists CF Parham, Tertullian and other Pentecostal trinitarians forefathers in the preface.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm looking for opinions, thanks.

.