DKB's Impassioned Plea For Iranian Branhamite?

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by DAII

Thanks ... we are.

And I understand your concerns, Daniel. But just let it be for now.

[Bullwinkle]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

I must confess I am not familiar with this story. My history studies leave me little time for current events, and I'm not really interested anyway, in reading the plethora of websites and poring over the many news channels.

I do see some parallels, assuming Daniel has the story straight.

"The Siberian Seven?" "The Russian Seven?" --or whatever they were called, supposedly being "persecuted" in the old Soviet Union? And hey, they probably were.

Bottom line: Nathaniel Urshan talked a blue streak about them for over a year in every district conference, general conference etc. The Herald and the Forward were saturated with "progress reports."

They were "ours!" They were "our people!"

You'd think it would have been the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and Campmeeting Jubilee when the Soviet government finally let those people emigrate.

Now this is just my opinion here. Any heat should be directed toward me; that's okay, I can take it.

But those Herald pictures at the airport of Urshan with his arms around the patriarch of the seven? Daniel's imagery brought that to mind--"incessant ownership." It was like Urshan didn't want anyone else--as far as religious leaders from other movements--in publicity photos.

But I noticed as a younger minister how quickly it all became hushed once they finally got those people to the US. All we heard at the next General Conference--very soon after they arrived--was "they're attending one of our churches and doing fine."

Well, bottom line, those people were trinitarians and NEVER attended a UPC church. They immediately went to the Assemblies of God or whomever. If they had REALLY been attending a UPC church, they and their pastor would have been paraded like circus elephants on every conference and campmeeting platform in the country.

A lot of high-pressure offerings were taken to FREE THE SIBERIAN SEVEN!

It all ended up being a big publicity stunt.

I wonder ... would Urshan have pushed that like he had, if he had realized there was NOT any UPC street cred to be earned from the "Russian Apostolics" who were not REALLY apostolic--at least not in Urshan's sense?

Of course, looking back at the REAL historical writings, I think Andrew Urshan was not "apostolic" in the sense Urshan, Hall and others tried to portray him.

But I digress. I see parallels with the "Russian Pentecostals" from the 80s and this situation.

Funny how Bernard--and to be fair, not just Bernard--draws these doctrinal and fellowship lines in the sand domestically, but is so quick to claim someone on the foreign field obviously not Grade-A UPC--because he thinks there might be some good pub coming from it.

I agree with most of what you write - except.....

I think Bro. Bernard is depending on info coming out of Montreal without verifying it independently.

[mfblume]

Branham would be considered apostolic by many since he was strong and staunch ONENESS, believed in Baptism in Jesus' name, believed in Acts 2:38 salvation despite not demanding tongues as initial evidence of the Spirit baptism, and even kept a strong "holiness" standard that many apostolics keep. His serpent seed issue was wrong, but so is futurism! I would not say he was a false prophet, either. Serpent seed is false doctrine, but Reckart is an extremist, too. Forget what Reckart says about anyone, though he does quote facts about people that are correct, and others that aren't. But his spirit cannot be trusted.

Several elder UPC ministers personally knew Branham, and I for one believed God genuinely used him in the gifts of the Spirit, though gift use does not mean one is right. Those who knew him believed he was mistaken with some things, likely due to his lack of education, and TW Barnes claims Branham personally told him before his death that he recanted on serpent seed doctrine.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

I must confess I am not familiar with this story. My history studies leave me little time for current events, and I'm not really interested anyway, in reading the plethora of websites and poring over the many news channels.

I do see some parallels, assuming Daniel has the story straight.

"The Siberian Seven?" "The Russian Seven?" --or whatever they were called, supposedly being "persecuted" in the old Soviet Union? And hey, they probably were.

Bottom line: Nathaniel Urshan talked a blue streak about them for over a year in every district conference, general conference etc. The Herald and the Forward were saturated with "progress reports."

They were "ours!" They were "our people!"

You'd think it would have been the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and Campmeeting Jubilee when the Soviet government finally let those people emigrate.

Now this is just my opinion here. Any heat should be directed toward me; that's okay, I can take it.

But those Herald pictures at the airport of Urshan with his arms around the patriarch of the seven? Daniel's imagery brought that to mind--"incessant ownership." It was like Urshan didn't want anyone else--as far as religious leaders from other movements--in publicity photos.

But I noticed as a younger minister how quickly it all became hushed once they finally got those people to the US. All we heard at the next General Conference--very soon after they arrived--was "they're attending one of our churches and doing fine."

Well, bottom line, those people were trinitarians and NEVER attended a UPC church. They immediately went to the Assemblies of God or whomever. If they had REALLY been attending a UPC church, they and their pastor would have been paraded like circus elephants on every conference and campmeeting platform in the country.

A lot of high-pressure offerings were taken to FREE THE SIBERIAN SEVEN!

It all ended up being a big publicity stunt.

I wonder ... would Urshan have pushed that like he had, if he had realized there was NOT any UPC street cred to be earned from the "Russian Apostolics" who were not REALLY apostolic--at least not in Urshan's sense?

Of course, looking back at the REAL historical writings, I think Andrew Urshan was not "apostolic" in the sense Urshan, Hall and others tried to portray him.

But I digress. I see parallels with the "Russian Pentecostals" from the 80s and this situation.

Funny how Bernard--and to be fair, not just Bernard--draws these doctrinal and fellowship lines in the sand domestically, but is so quick to claim someone on the foreign field obviously not Grade-A UPC--because he thinks there might be some good pub coming from it.

TL - the walking Apostolic history book.

I don't know if this guy is really an "Apostolic contact" or not; does anyone? Regardless, it does seem like an unfortunate trend to claim any Christian who appears in the news as one of our own. It's kind of disgusting, actually, and I really hope that isn't the case here.

Every worthy cause needs a martyr, and it's pretty despicable to see groups clamoring over who gets to claim the latest and greatest. Hopefully Youcef won't be a martyr at all and can stick with his status of "persecuted." Frankly, I'm surprised the mainstream media hasn't picked this up as a human rights violation, since he's actually being persecuted for rejecting Islam...oh, wait....

[DAII]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

TL - the walking Apostolic history book.

I don't know if this guy is really an "Apostolic contact" or not; does anyone? Regardless, it does seem like an unfortunate trend to claim any Christian who appears in the news as one of our own. It's kind of disgusting, actually, and I really hope that isn't the case here.

Every worthy cause needs a martyr, and it's pretty despicable to see groups clamoring over who gets to claim the latest and greatest. Hopefully Youcef won't be a martyr at all and can stick with his status of "persecuted." Frankly, I'm surprised the mainstream media hasn't picked this up as a human rights violation, since he's actually being persecuted for rejecting Islam...oh, wait....

The contact, Miss B, is not Youcef but rather most likely a Pastor Reza from an Iranian multi-cultural ministry at a Montreal UPCI church ... who "knows" the people on the ground over there... including Youcef.

http://upcsaintlaurent.org/en/iranian-ministry

[Falla39]

I wonder if that certain Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 asked that certain man (that fell among thieves, who stripped him of his raiment and wounded him and departed, leaving him half dead), if he was Baptist, A of G, UPC, etc

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Falla39

I wonder if that certain Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37 asked that certain man (that fell among thieves, who stripped him of his raiment and wounded him and departed, leaving him half dead), if he was Baptist, A of G, UPC, etc

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

I most definitely agree with this sentiment and believe we should even do the same if the wounded is a non-believer or an avowed atheist.

Yet of the thousands of Christians being persecuted worldwide ... this particular pastor drew the attention of the General Supt. ... so much so it is posted on his bulletin to the fellowship ... asking for prayer.

Why, Falla ... did you get the WNOP urgent request?

[Bullwinkle]

Originally Posted by DAII

The contact, Miss B, is not Youcef but rather most likely a Pastor Reza from an Iranian multi-cultural ministry at a Montreal UPCI church ... who "knows" the people on the ground over there... including Youcef.

http://upcsaintlaurent.org/en/iranian-ministry

Youcef and Behrouz are not Branhamites.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by DAII

I most definitely agree with this sentiment and believe we should even do the same if the wounded is a non-believer or an avowed atheist.

Yet of the thousands of Christians being persecuted worldwide ... this particular pastor drew the attention of the General Supt. ... so much so it is posted on his bulletin to the fellowship ... asking for prayer.

Why, Falla ... did you get the WNOP urgent request?

Yes we would go to the ends of the earth to save, pray, and rescue anyone, however the question is; why claim someone you would not normally claim.

Save them? yes but what could be the gain in "claiming them"?

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle

Youcef and Behrouz are not Branhamites.

Your source, Elder?