The Truth, in Their own Words

[Walks_in_islam]

You say Surah 9 applies to Jews and Christians then use the word "Truth"??

Surah 9 applies to the pagans in Mecca between the time the first Mosque was built until the time that their idols were torn down and they were thrown out

Surah 9 begins with this:

1. [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.

2. So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.

4. Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

5. And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Your version: Kill the nonbelievers wherever you find them.)

6. And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. (you skipped 6. Why?)

7. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

8. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.

9. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. (your version of 7-9: Don’t make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.)

10. They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

11. But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah (charity), then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know. (you also skipped 11 – why?)

12. And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.

13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

14. Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people (your version of 12-14: Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory.) Mecca is still a sacred place in Islam. As it turns out, this Surah was right

15. And remove the fury in the believers' hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.

16. Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

17. It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah [while] witnessing against themselves with disbelief. [For] those, their deeds have become worthless, and in the Fire they will abide eternally.

18. The mosques of Allah are only to be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and establish prayer and give zakah and do not fear except Allah , for it is expected that those will be of the [rightly] guided.

19. Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to [the deeds of] one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ? They are not equal in the sight of Allah . And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

OH I left out Surah 9: 28 and 29

28: O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. (your version: Fight against Christians and Jews ”until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.”)

You're not the first lying pentecostal preacher though are you? Lets find some more.

[Walks_in_islam]

Words of an apostolic preacher:

Qur’an (2:65-66) Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.

What the words really say:

Surah 2

62: Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. (not really what this preacher is teaching is it?)

63: And [recall] when We took your covenant, [O Children of Israel, to abide by the Torah] and We raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with determination and remember what is in it that perhaps you may become righteous."

64: Then you turned away after that. And if not for the favor of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have been among the losers.

65: And you had already known about those who transgressed among you concerning the sabbath, and We said to them, "Be apes, despised."

66: And We made it a deterrent punishment for those who were present and those who succeeded [them] and a lesson for those who fear Allah .

67: And [recall] when Moses said to his people, "Indeed, Allah commands you to slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you take us in ridicule?" He said, "I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant."

The Surah goes on to describe the laws given to Moses and the doubting of and subsequent breaking of them

If so terrible, why the need to lie? Why not just post the actual words?

NOTE: Prophets through Jesus warned Isreal time and again and time and again they were taken into slavery for not following the law.

[Walks_in_islam]

Qur’an (4:48, 4:116)-Those who ascribe a partner to Allah (like Christians do with Jesus and the Holy Spirit) will not be forgiven. They have “invented a tremendous sin.”

Easy answer to this:

Mark 12:

28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?”
29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD

Surah 4:48 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

Surah 4:116 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.

Neither Surah 4:48 nor Surah 4:116 reference anything but association of God with another. Added context is merely deceit for incitement of hatred.

[Walks_in_islam]

Your words: Qur’an (3:85) - ”And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.”

What does Surah 3 really say?

[B]2. Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
4. Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.

Down to 84 and 85

84: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
85: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

It is specifically stated that no distinction is made in the Quran Surah 3:84-85 between believing Muslims, Jews, or Christians

Implication otherwise is a form of deceit.

[Walks_in_islam]

Surah 9: They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded by Him to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Jesus prayed to and instructed his followers to pray to God numerous times. Right or wrong in your mind, this is also in your bible and this is what this Surah is referring to.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Surah 9: They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded by Him to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Jesus prayed to and instructed his followers to pray to God numerous times. Right or wrong in your mind, this is also in your bible and this is what this Surah is referring to.

While you are busy finding alternate translations to the various quotes from the koran, I noticed you chose not to respond to the documented facts presented by Pliny in post #23. Interesting.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

While you are busy finding alternate translations to the various quotes from the koran, I noticed you chose not to respond to the documented facts presented by Pliny in post #23. Interesting.

What is more interesting is that this is your only answer. You are very welcome to find and post a different translation beside mine if you are implying intent on my side to mislead.

FACT: I used the first random translation I found electronically and note with amusement your lack of measurable or value-added comment on the "corrections". As it was late I did not actually get a chance to address "post #23". My comments are directed to you and to your post and as it appears that you have nothing to say on my fixes to your tainted and untrue message I will get to your back-slapping herd of sheeple in due time.

Those who wish to compare on their own should otherwise take your original advice and google it. This is advised for all wild or doubtful sounding apostolic "alter stories" or "scare stories" or "victory stories" from all apostolic preachers (like Bin Laden's group of converted torah borah wives LOL and I'm passing the plate so that you can demonstrate your sacrifice and allow god to work a miracle right here in this service by giving you a "blood transfusion")

The spirit that drives christian hate speech against Muslims is the same spirit that drives hate speech against christianity in the middle east and hate speech against jews in europe and hate speech among the "christian white" against people of color in the US and hate speech against Palestinians in jewish settlements. That spirit, and it is a tricky one, is equally wrong in all of these referenced but not all contexts.

To see someone driven by this spirit is pretty sad actually. Kindly commit in the future however to incorporate truth into your hate speech. It makes you "look" smarter and we all know that in the Apostolic world "looking holy" is way, way superior to "being holy" LOL

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

Sometimes it takes more than words to understand an issue.

For those who would like more information on the nature of islam and it's impact worldwide, the following link is helpful. It deals with muslim demographics and their effects on society.

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/...ics-explained/

The author states: "Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.
Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well."

The numbers and statistics presented are disturbing at best and represent a comprehensive exploration of the effects of worldwide islamization. Is islam in fact, a religion of peace? Consider the situation worldwide based upon the current realities. Are muslims really the peaceful people, so apparently misrepresented by the west? The facts speak for themselves and leave no room for no doubt concerning the nature and goals of islam.

Also consider the report on the threat that Shariah represents to America. It can be found in total at:

http://themuslimissue.files.wordpres...b-09292010.pdf

Islam incorporates a set of laws yes.

US:

Murder rate: 4.8
Imprisonment rate: 760

Muslim countries:

Kuwait: 2.2 and 137
Oman: .7 and 61
Qatar: .9 and 60
Turkey: 3.3 and 168
Saudi: 1.0 and 173
UAE: .8 and 238
Yemen: 4.2 and 48

It seems to be working for them. I wonder why those oppressive evil Muslim governments don't have more people locked up and why those evil violent Muslims aren't out there commiting more crimes?

I won't stun you with the thousands of percent difference in the violent crime rates. Yet you say Islam is a violent religion.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace
"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29

2013.04.23 (Baghdad, Iraq) - Muslims bomb a rival mosque, killing seven worshippers.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...93I0EJ20130419

2013.04.22 (Fallujah, Iraq) - Nine people at a restaurant are taken out in mid-bite by Mujahid bombers.
2013.04.21 (Pattani, Thailand) - A 49-year-old Buddhist woman is gunned down in a targeted attack by Muslim militants.
2013.04.21 (Paktika, Afghanistan) - Three civilians at a shopping mall are blown to bits by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2013.04.20 (Khar, Pakistan) - A female Fedayeen blows herself up outside a hospital, taking four innocents with her.
2013.04.19 (Wana, Pakistan) - Taliban extremists send rockets into an election rally, killing four people.


Let's not forget about the "recreational violence" of Boston or the "workplace violence" of Ft. hood.

Here are more examples of the "religion of peace":
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age2206424/pg1


Then of course there is the "religion of peace" in Egypt:
Nevertheless, the mob fury in Kom Ombo began to dissipate somewhat when the missing woman reappeared to her family, where according to an Egyptian police official, it was found that she was not the victim of a forced conversion but rather had disappeared for “family and social reasons.”

Yet, while the rumor of the forced conversion was revealed to be a fake, what is all too real is the ongoing and escalating abduction and forced conversion to Islam of Coptic Christian women and girls by Egyptian Muslims.

While this distressing practice has been plaguing Egypt’s Coptic community for decades, the number of these abduction cases, perhaps not surprisingly, has dramatically grown since the January 2011 ouster of Egyptian President Hosnai Mubarak.

In a 2012 report commissioned by Christian Solidarity International titled Tell My Mother I Miss Her and written by George Washington University professor Michele Clark and Coptic human rights activist Nadia Ghaly, 500 cases were reported of Coptic females having been kidnapped and forcibly converted to Islam.
http://frontpagemag.com/2013/frank-c...-coptic-girls/


And here is the case of a 14 year old Coptic Christian girl kidnapped:
(AINA) -- Hundreds of Christian Egyptian girls having been abducted and forced to convert to Islam and marry Muslim men since the 2011 Egyptian Revolution. But the case of 14 year old Sarah has become symbolic, bringing to confrontation Muslims groups, whose members are implicated in the kidnappings, and the Coptic Church and human rights organizations.

On Sunday, September 30 Sarah Ishaq Abdelmalek, born on August 1, 1998 in the town of el-Dabaa, 130 kilometers from Mersa Matrouh, was on her way to school with her cousin Miriam, when they stopped at a bookshop. Miriam went ahead of Sarah to school, leaving Sarah behind. Sarah never made it to school and no one has seen her since then. Her father was hesitant at first to contact the authorities for fear of harm to his family and his other children by the Salafi Muslims, who have a large presence and influence in Mersa Matrouh and Alexandria. He finally filed a report with the police on October 20, accusing 27 year old bookshop keeper and Salafist Mahmoud Abu Zied Abdel Gawwad, a married man and father of children, of abducting Sarah and marrying her against her will (AINA 11-2-2012).

"Sarah was smuggled across the borders to Libya with the help of the Interior Ministry," said Ebram Louis, founder of the Coptic non-governmental organization Association of Victims of Abduction and Enforced Disappearance (AVAED), which handles cases of abducted Coptic minors. Louis blamed the interior ministry for all the disappearances of Coptic minors, saying the ministry colludes with the Muslims.
http://www.aina.org/news/20130201192615.htm


Yeah, Islam is a real peaceful religion...

The answer to "post 23"

The victims of these attacks are peaceful Muslims.

As to the issue of Egypt:

Forced marriages and forced conversion have nothing to do with Islam

The bride's permission is a fundamental element of the marriage contract and at a minimum must be voiced at the ceremony

Without her permission, the contract is either null and void, or may be invalidated by the Islamic authorities at the bride’s request. The minimum required permission may be done by either voicing her approval or through a passive expression such as remaining silent when asked about a potential husband and simply nodding her head, or making any other motion to indicate that she does not object to the marriage. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “A deflowered unmarried woman (i.e., widow or divorcee) may not be married without her instructions; and a virgin may not be married without her permission” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

As to FORCED conversion the Quran says this:

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.
And keep thy soul content with those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His Face; and let not thine eyes pass beyond them, seeking the pomp and glitter of this Life; no obey any whose heart We have permitted to neglect the remembrance of Us, one who follows his own desires, whose case has gone beyond all bounds.
Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

[larrylyates]

FACT: I used the first random translation I found electronically and note with amusement your lack of measurable or value-added comment on the "corrections".

I found my quotes in precisely the same way. There appear to be a number of conflicting interpretations/translations of the koran. We have in fact, a similar problem with translations of the Bible. That being said, there is nothing remotely "amusing," in any part of this discussion. The facts are in evidence and can be independently verified. As previously stated:

Several will respond to this and try to say it isn't so, that this is untrue. The Internet makes any illusion along those lines, impossible. Ask yourself, what sort of person would attempt such a defense in the first place. What kind of person would do that? What motive would they have in defending such evil? The answer to that is self-evident!
To say that islam is a peaceful religion, as some would try and deceive, ignores the facts of their own admission. Dr. Klein has already enumerated many disturbing passages from the muslim "holy book." Readers can find more at the following link:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=43101

These are not statements made up in order to make islam "look bad." It already IS evil. These are verses from their very own book. Before you accept the lie that "anyone can take verses out of context and make them say anything they want." Take any of the verses from Dr. Klein's list or from mine and run them through your search engine. Then look at the simple truth for yourself.