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Old 03-16-2018, 06:40 AM
Strict Baptist Strict Baptist is offline
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A Waldensian chimes in

Allow me to express my appreciation to participate on these forms. I was for 21 years a Pentecostal who later altogether left after both intensive study of scripture (now sitting, praise the blessed and only Potentate, at fifteen times in four years), theology as well as the history and doctrines of both Romanism and traditional Pentecostalism. Without belaboring the point, I left in 2014 when Dr GO Wood, former General Superintendent, violated 12 of the 16 non-negotiable Statement of Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God (grounds for utter extripating excommunication) by his ecumenism with the Mormons at Brigham Young University. Those articles actually arose during the 1914 to 1916 split among Pentecostals. Interestingly enough, Drs Trask and Zimmerman, his predecessors, broke these identical articles for decades in ecumenical participation with Rome in various charismatic congresses. Being a native of southern Louisiana, I know Romanism like few do; it was a total slap in the face to read of this years later when for leaving I was effectively called the devil's son. The most alarming thing of it all is all three to this very hour are in good standing within the Assemblies; not one peep of protest has ever been publically voiced. Leaving was costly, but it lead to discovering my Waldensian heritage, being among the oldest Christians yet extant who have for centuries predated Rome as well as have been viciously persecuted, but on the main body in Italy this is wholly lost...

I am privy to a little-known bit of Pentecostal history if it might be shared -- RS King was my first pastor, who was rather influential in establishing and broadening Pentecostalism in this area. After Swaggart's original 1989 adultery, dear, sweet Pastor King offered to counsel Swaggart even after he haughtily left the Assemblies (he called their whole General Presbytery morons and stormed out, refusing to undergo any rebuke). It would have been a simple drive down I-10, but Swaggart rudely refused. He now teaches in his Expositor's Study Bible where sickeningly more of his bold, italicized red comments drown out the text in Deuteronomy 4.16 the Spirit has a body and wine, even a drop, is a damnable sin. Perhaps someone ought to tell him never to use mouthwash in his multi-million dollar homes in Baton Rouge!

Let me state, however, that I never was involved neither would be with the various Oneness groups. Therefore, while I am studying its history and have read the entire 2017 UPCI manual (that shockingly copies not merely the format but almost the exact language of the AG documents), I come for research purposes, hoping to understand the Oneness interpolations of Sabellianism as they play out in an individual daily level. Does anyone know of a documented history of the Oneness movement? I have some histories of Pentecostalism, including biographies (and AS McPherson's autobiography plus some of Fire Baptized Holiness Church premier Frank Bartleman's works) but little is covered in the Oneness side of the group. The UPCI manual was of no help because it ironically lists Trinitarians as its forefathers, such as the Holiness movement, CF Parham, the Quakers and even Tertullian who wasn't orthodox as a Trinitarian but still one nonetheless. Any suggestions are appreciated.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:45 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

Hello SB.

I was curious so did a google search on Waldensian. Is this a fair summary:

The Waldensians (also called the Waldenses or the Vaudois) were a religious group that arose in the late Middle Ages and is now seen as a precursor to the Protestant Reformation. In the beginning the Waldensians were simply a group of traveling lay preachers within the Roman Catholic Church, but as time went on and they faced mounting persecution, they broke from Catholicism and embraced Calvinism.

Most histories trace the origin of the Waldensians to Peter Waldo (also called Valdes), a wealthy merchant in Lyons, France. In 1174, Waldo renounced his wealth, started giving his money away, and committed to living a life of voluntary poverty from then on. In 1176, Waldo became a traveling preacher. Others joined his group, and they became known as the Poor Men of Lyons. While the early Waldensians still considered themselves Roman Catholic, they soon ran into problems with the established church for two reasons: they had no formal training as clergy, and they were handing out Bibles in the vernacular (instead of Latin). Church officials told Waldo and his Pauperes (“Poor”) to stop preaching without the consent of the local clergy.

But the Waldensians continued to preach, wearing rough clothing and sandals and preaching repentance. A traveling Waldensian preacher was known as a barba and could be either a man or a woman. The barbes taught poverty, individual responsibility, and self-denial, and they promoted evangelism via public preaching and the personal study of the Scriptures (in one’s own language). The Waldensians loved the Bible and insisted that the Bible be their sole authority; at the same time, they publicly criticized the corruption of the Roman Catholic clergy. The Waldensians rejected many of the superstitious traditions of Catholicism, including prayers for the dead and holy water, and they spoke against indulgences and the doctrine of purgatory. Communion, they said, was a memorial of Christ’s death, not a sacrifice. They did not follow the church’s calendar concerning days of fasting, and they refused to bow before altars, venerate saints, or treat “holy” bread as holy. In short, the Waldensians could be seen as launching a pre-Reformation reform movement.

The Waldensians’ back-to-the-Bible approach appealed to many, and the movement quickly spread rapidly to Spain, northern France, Flanders, Germany, southern Italy, and even Poland and Hungary. But the Catholic Church did not take kindly to the Waldensian call to reform. In 1181 the archbishop of Lyons excommunicated the Waldensians. Three years later, the pope declared them to be heretics. In 1215 the Fourth Lateran Council declared an anathema on Waldensian doctrine.

In the 1230s, persecution against the Waldensians increased and lasted for three hundred years. In some areas Waldensians faced the death penalty if they refused to recant, and the Inquisition began actively seeking the leaders of the various Waldensian groups. The Waldensians went underground, and many groups retreated into remote areas in the Alps in order to survive. In 1487 Pope Innocent VIII pronounced a crusade against two Waldensian groups in the Cottian Alps along the French-Italian border, and many villages were devastated. In April 1545 two Waldensian towns in France, Merindol and Cabrieres, along with twenty-eight smaller villages, were attacked by troops sent by Cardinal Tournon, the archbishop of Lyons. The towns were destroyed, the women were raped, and about four thousand people killed. In response to such severe persecution, many Waldensians fled to Geneva, Switzerland, where they found refuge with John Calvin.

Eventually, most Waldensians became part of the churches of the Reformation, such as Presbyterian, Lutheran, or Reformed. But today there are still Waldensian churches in existence in Germany, Italy, Uruguay, Argentina, the United States, and elsewhere.

The Waldensians are properly remembered for their bravery during a dark period of history, their perseverance under the brutality of the Holy Roman Empire, their commitment to biblical authority, and their conscientious dissent in the face of Catholic error.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Waldensians.html
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:04 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

history of baptism in Jesus name

http://www.apostolicarchives.com/art...925/180090.htm

Trinitarians originated with the Catholic church, who also corrupted baptism.

NEW INTERNATIONAL ENCYCLO. – The term "Trinity" was originated by Tertullian. A Roman Catholic Church Father. Vol. 22, Page 477.

Last edited by Amanah; 03-16-2018 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:39 PM
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KeptByTheWord KeptByTheWord is offline
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

Interesting history about the Waldenisians.

Welcome to the forum StrictBaptist
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Old 03-17-2018, 02:39 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strict Baptist View Post

Let me state, however, that I never was involved neither would be with the various Oneness groups. .
Why?
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Old 03-17-2018, 06:21 PM
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MawMaw MawMaw is offline
of 8!! :)


 
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

Hello and welcome!
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:19 PM
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

The book at the link below will give you a very good place to start if you desire to do more reading and research about the Oneness movement in the 20th century:

https://www.amazon.com/Their-Story-2.../dp/B004A90BEM

This as well:

https://www.amazon.com/History-Chris.../dp/B004P8JIAG

For a scholar's take, this book has two chapters devoted to early Oneness Pentecostals, Andrew Urshan and Garfield Haywood:

https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Spir.../dp/0253216036
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http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:39 PM
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FlamingZword FlamingZword is offline
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

The Waldensians: They formed a diverse group, with some of them being arians who denied the trinity and baptized in the name of Jesus. They rebaptized those who came from the Catholic Church by immersion. David of Augsburg, A. D. 1256-1272, says: “They say that a man is then truly for the first time baptized, when he is brought into this heresy.” There is a work of theirs which confirms their mode of baptism; this text is called the "Nobla Leycon" which is supposed to have been written in the beginning of the twelfth century (AD 1100). It was held in great esteem by them. We extract the following passage from it: "And he commanded the apostles to baptize the nations. For then began the renewal. And he called the apostles, and commanded them to go throughout the world, to make disciples of all nations: To preach to Jews and Greeks, and every human being. And they proclaimed without fear the doctrine of Christ; preaching to Jews and Greeks, and working many miracles. And they baptized believers in the name of Jesus Christ. Then there became a people of new converts. And they were called Christians because they trusted in Christ." The History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piedmont (1658) pp. 112,113 by Sir Samuel Morland. (Preger, Der Tractat des David von Augsburg die Waldesier)
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:31 PM
Strict Baptist Strict Baptist is offline
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Why?
That's quite simple -- I cannot affirm what the Sabellian Oneness Pentecostal movement requires in scripture, especially considering we predate Sabellius, Noetus, Praxeaus, Noetus and others who deny hypostasis. I left Pentecostalism altogether for my roots because in reading the sacred writ I could not find but Romanism staring back at me. Recall that it is the Oneness view that baptism by immersion, glossolalia that I have come to call estatic jabberwocky and affirmation of modified Sabellianism is mandatory to be a Chrisitan according to the UPCI 2017 manual, none of which I would dare affirm save the mode of dipping.
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:33 PM
Strict Baptist Strict Baptist is offline
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Re: A Waldensian chimes in

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
The Waldensians: They formed a diverse group, with some of them being arians who denied the trinity and baptized in the name of Jesus. They rebaptized those who came from the Catholic Church by immersion. David of Augsburg, A. D. 1256-1272, says: “They say that a man is then truly for the first time baptized, when he is brought into this heresy.” There is a work of theirs which confirms their mode of baptism; this text is called the "Nobla Leycon" which is supposed to have been written in the beginning of the twelfth century (AD 1100). It was held in great esteem by them. We extract the following passage from it: "And he commanded the apostles to baptize the nations. For then began the renewal. And he called the apostles, and commanded them to go throughout the world, to make disciples of all nations: To preach to Jews and Greeks, and every human being. And they proclaimed without fear the doctrine of Christ; preaching to Jews and Greeks, and working many miracles. And they baptized believers in the name of Jesus Christ. Then there became a people of new converts. And they were called Christians because they trusted in Christ." The History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piedmont (1658) pp. 112,113 by Sir Samuel Morland. (Preger, Der Tractat des David von Augsburg die Waldesier)
None of our creeds, including the Noble Lesson, read for whatever Sabellius preached. Cramp, Jones, Schaff and numerous other historians, even the Romanist Dr Allix, affirm we long predate both 1100 and 325. Try a read of Dr JA Wylie's History of the Waldenses for a start.
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