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Old 07-02-2020, 05:41 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Empires in the Book of Revelation

First, I am not interested in a debate with preterist of any kind please.

If you believe in a future coming of Christ, premillennial coming, I would love to here your opinion of this passage:

[Rev 17:10-14 NKJV] 10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, [and] the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 "The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 "These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those [who are] with Him [are] called, chosen, and faithful."


Five have fallen

"fallen" a word applicable not to forms of government passing away, but to the fall of once powerful empires: Egypt, Eze 29:1-30:26; Assyria and Nineveh, Na 3:1-19; Babylon, Re 18:2; Jer 50:1-51:64; Medo-Persia, Da 8:3-7, 20-22; 10:13; 11:2; Greece, Da 11:4

Timelines:

Egypt 3150 BC - 1069 BC
Assyria 2500 BC - 609 BC
Babylonia 1895 BC - 539 BC
Medo-Persia 550 BC - 330 BC
Grece 808 BC - 168 BC

Notice all these empires had a beginning, then a period of expansion, and then a fall. At times, the coexisted with other empires but they ended up clashing and falling.

one is

Obviously Roman empire. 27 BC - 1453 AD
The Byzantine Empire is a modern terminology, but they believed to be simply Romans, or the true Roman Empire still alive.

the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

I believe this one is the Ottoman Empire, that defeated the previous empire. 1299 AD - 1920 AD.


"The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven

This last empire is coming from one of the seven. So it is forming in that region.

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

This empire starts as an alliance of kingdoms, as also explained in the book of Daniel.

"These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

There is going to be a great unity among those kingdoms. There is something, a cause, a religion, a system, that will unite them.

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them

And that's the last empire.


I believe that last empire is from the Islamic nations in the middle east, led by Turkey. So, if that's the case, I expect 10 nations to rise in some alliance, and also the Beast (aka antichrist), rising and conquering and being militarily strong. And then being killed and coming back to life and continue the expansion. I believe the Beast empire is on the making right now.

I have read about the Mahdi, which matches the Beast. And also the passage in Daniel:

[Dan 9:26-27 NASB] 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

As Joseph mentions, the army that destroyed Jerusalem was led by Roman generals but the actual soldiers were mainly from the neighbor nations. So the prince to come will be from those people, which are today the Islamic nations around Israel.

And he (prince to come) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week Phrase in parenthesis added by me.

Thoughts?

Last edited by coksiw; 07-02-2020 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 07-02-2020, 06:12 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
First, I am not interested in a debate with preterist of any kind please.

If you believe in a future coming of Christ, premillennial coming, I would love to here your opinion of this passage:

[Rev 17:10-14 NKJV] 10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, [and] the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 "The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 "These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those [who are] with Him [are] called, chosen, and faithful."


Five have fallen

"fallen" a word applicable not to forms of government passing away, but to the fall of once powerful empires: Egypt, Eze 29:1-30:26; Assyria and Nineveh, Na 3:1-19; Babylon, Re 18:2; Jer 50:1-51:64; Medo-Persia, Da 8:3-7, 20-22; 10:13; 11:2; Greece, Da 11:4

Timelines:

Egypt 3150 BC - 1069 BC
Assyria 2500 BC - 609 BC
Babylonia 1895 BC - 539 BC
Medo-Persia 550 BC - 330 BC
Grece 808 BC - 168 BC

Notice all these empires had a beginning, then a period of expansion, and then a fall. At times, the coexisted with other empires but they ended up clashing and falling.

one is

Obviously Roman empire. 27 BC - 1453 AD
The Byzantine Empire is a modern terminology, but they believed to be simply Romans, or the true Roman Empire still alive.

the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

I believe this one is the Ottoman Empire, that defeated the previous empire. 1299 AD - 1920 AD.


"The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven

This last empire is coming from one of the seven. So it is forming in that region.

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

This empire starts as an alliance of kingdoms, as also explained in the book of Daniel.

"These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

There is going to be a great unity among those kingdoms. There is something, a cause, a religion, a system, that will unite them.

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them

And that's the last empire.


I believe that last empire is from the Islamic nations in the middle east, led by Turkey. So, if that's the case, I expect 10 nations to rise in some alliance, and also the Beast (aka antichrist), rising and conquering and being militarily strong. And then being killed and coming back to life and continue the expansion. I believe the Beast empire is on the making right now.

I have read about the Mahdi, which matches the Beast. And also the passage in Daniel:

[Dan 9:26-27 NASB] 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

As Joseph mentions, the army that destroyed Jerusalem was led by Roman generals but the actual soldiers were mainly from the neighbor nations. So the prince to come will be from those people, which are today the Islamic nations around Israel.

And he (prince to come) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week Phrase in parenthesis added by me.

Thoughts?
Matthew 16:4
[4] A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
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Old 07-02-2020, 07:31 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
First, I am not interested in a debate with preterist of any kind please.

If you believe in a future coming of Christ, premillennial coming, I would love to here your opinion of this passage:

[Rev 17:10-14 NKJV] 10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, [and] the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 "The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 "These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those [who are] with Him [are] called, chosen, and faithful."


Five have fallen

"fallen" a word applicable not to forms of government passing away, but to the fall of once powerful empires: Egypt, Eze 29:1-30:26; Assyria and Nineveh, Na 3:1-19; Babylon, Re 18:2; Jer 50:1-51:64; Medo-Persia, Da 8:3-7, 20-22; 10:13; 11:2; Greece, Da 11:4

Timelines:

Egypt 3150 BC - 1069 BC
Assyria 2500 BC - 609 BC
Babylonia 1895 BC - 539 BC
Medo-Persia 550 BC - 330 BC
Grece 808 BC - 168 BC

Notice all these empires had a beginning, then a period of expansion, and then a fall. At times, the coexisted with other empires but they ended up clashing and falling.

one is

Obviously Roman empire. 27 BC - 1453 AD
The Byzantine Empire is a modern terminology, but they believed to be simply Romans, or the true Roman Empire still alive.

the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

I believe this one is the Ottoman Empire, that defeated the previous empire. 1299 AD - 1920 AD.


"The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven

This last empire is coming from one of the seven. So it is forming in that region.

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.

This empire starts as an alliance of kingdoms, as also explained in the book of Daniel.

"These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.

There is going to be a great unity among those kingdoms. There is something, a cause, a religion, a system, that will unite them.

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them

And that's the last empire.


I believe that last empire is from the Islamic nations in the middle east, led by Turkey. So, if that's the case, I expect 10 nations to rise in some alliance, and also the Beast (aka antichrist), rising and conquering and being militarily strong. And then being killed and coming back to life and continue the expansion. I believe the Beast empire is on the making right now.

I have read about the Mahdi, which matches the Beast. And also the passage in Daniel:

[Dan 9:26-27 NASB] 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end [will come] with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations [will come] one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

As Joseph mentions, the army that destroyed Jerusalem was led by Roman generals but the actual soldiers were mainly from the neighbor nations. So the prince to come will be from those people, which are today the Islamic nations around Israel.

And he (prince to come) will make a firm covenant with the many for one week Phrase in parenthesis added by me.

Thoughts?
I'll be back later to post some thoughts.
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Old 07-03-2020, 12:56 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
First, I am not interested in a debate with preterist of any kind please.

If you believe in a future coming of Christ, premillennial coming, I would love to here your opinion of this passage:

[Rev 17:10-14 NKJV] 10 "There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, [and] the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 "The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 "These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those [who are] with Him [are] called, chosen, and faithful."


...

Thoughts?
There is an awful lot here, enough to write several books. So I'll try to be brief.

The seventh head you suggested was the Ottoman Empire, however it is said that this one would continue "a short time". The Ottoman Empire did not continue "a short time" but rather lasted some 700 years.

A few notes:

1 The dragon and the beast are clearly related and represent something very similar to each other, as evidenced by both having seven heads. It is said that the dragon gave to the beast his power and throne etc (Rev 13:2). This is usually taken to mean the dragon set up the beast. But it can also mean the dragon yielded to the beast his (the dragon's) power etc. This would indicate that the dragon and the beast are symbolic representations of the same entity under different forms or in different phases.

2 The above is further corroborated by the fact that the beast is said to have seven heads, and then there is mention of an eighth head which is said to be the beast itself. In other words, the beast is the final form of the power represented by the dragon. The seven heads give way to an eighth head or power structure. This eighth power structure is "of the seven", meaning it is just as much part of the whole thing as the other seven were. Yet, in order for the beast itself to be the eighth head, and yet there is no beast shown with eight heads (only seven), it indicates the beast itself is the eight successive power that followed the first seven heads (previously seen on the dragon). Or to put it another way, the dragon represents a dominion with seven phases, then there is an eighth phase (represented by the beast from the sea). This eighth phase is "of the seven" that is it is a continuation of what was previously represented by the dragon.

3 The "seven mountains" or "hills" upon which the woman sits is a clear representation of Rome. It should be kept in mind, the WOMAN doesn't have the seven mountains or hills, the BEAST does. This identifies the beast with Rome. The woman is a distinct entity from the beast.

4 Identifying the seven heads has generally followed three interpretations, 2 of which are historicist and one of which is favoured by preterists. The preterist interpretation supposes John wrote in Nero's time, and the seven heads are seven emperors, which Nero being the sixth. Unfortunately this interpretation fails for reasons I won't get into here since this thread isn't about preterism. The two historicist interpretations are as follows:

A The seven heads represent seven world empires or superpowers - usually listed as Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the short lived exarchate of Ravenna.

B The seven heads represent seven successive phases or forms of Roman government - kings, consuls, dictators, decemvirates, tribunes, emperors. These six were well attested in period historical literature (see Livy, for example) and everyone understood the imperial government was the sixth form of Rome's government. The seventh has been variously interpreted as the nominally Christian emperors from Constantine to Augustulus (terminated by the Heruli), or (as per Newton) the exarchate of Ravenna (the sixth head being the imperial form whether pagan or Christian), or the alteration of the imperial power brought about by Diocletian which changed the Roman imperial government from its previous character to that of a typical Asiatic despotism (as per Elliott, etc). There are a few other variations but they are generally not important.

I used to generally suspect the former method was correct (successive world empires) but I think there is a strong argument against it - namely that the seven phases belong to one and the same Empire (Rome). It may be however that the beast and dragon represent not merely one particular national or international power, but (perhaps like the image of Danial 2) one HUMAN kingdom or power (the kingdom of MAN, regardless of its ethnic origins or geographical location or direct continuity from one phase to the next). I do find it interesting that BOTH approaches work, and I do believe there is a way to explain that curious fact but I'll save it for later if it comes up.

5 The beast is intimately connected with Rome, so much so that it literally represents Rome and the Roman system. Speculation about Mohammedan powers do not properly belong here in this particular part. They are in the Revelation, just not here in the descriptions of the sea beast.

6 The ten horns hearken back to the ten horns of the fourth beast in Daniel's visions (see Daniel 7). The ten horns in Daniel 7 are the ten powers that arose out of the old Roman system, and from among which the "little horn" arose. The connections between the little horn of Daniel 7 and the eighth king (that is, the sea beast) of Revelation 13 and 17 are pretty clear and well established. That being the case, the ten horns are NOT ten yet-to-arise powers or nations or an alliance or any such thing, but rather ten powers that already arose and from among which the great persecuting power of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 arose. That would connect the ten horns with the "ten toes" of the image in Daniel 2 that arose upon the "dividing" of the kingdom of iron (the Roman Empire). Which in turn means the ten horns (like the ten toes) are emblematic of the European nations that arose out of the dissolution of the Roman Empire and among which the persecuting papal power arose. That they receive power "one hour with the beast" has often been understood as meaning a very short time period. However, the phrase "one hour" can also be understood to mean "a time" or "one time", with no actual specification of the time limit itself.

7 The woman needs to be clearly and SCRIPTURALLY identified. Most historicists have interpreted the woman as Rome. This is clearly an error for several reasons, namely that the beast itself is Rome (as previously mentioned) and the ten horns are an outgrowth and CONTINUATION of the Roman power. They do not destroy themselves! The woman is Jerusalem.

There are only two cities mentioned in the Apocalypse: The holy city of God, the new Jerusalem; and the city where the two witnesses are slain which is the great city and which is identified as Babylon, and which is "spiritually called Sodom, and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." Our Lord was not crucified in Rome, but in Jerusalem. Paul likewise describes two contrasting cities in Galatians as being the heavenly Jerusalem and the earthly Jerusalem. He also identifies these two cities as not two specific literal municipalities with specific geographical locations, but as two religious movements: the church, and Judaism/Pharisaism. (See Galatians 4.) Both are called by Paul "Jerusalem", which is why in the Revelation both cities are identified with Jerusalem, one heavenly and one earthly, one that is right with God and one that is abominable and filthy and doomed to destruction.

The woman being identified with the Pharisaic power structure that was propped up by Rome and which in fact was sitting upon the beast similarly to the way a ruler sits upon a horse, indicates collusion between Rome and Jerusalem. Not necessarily limited to collusion between two literal physical cities, but rather between two POWER STRUCTURES, the Roman and the Judean.

The Roman power (which includes its latter manifestation as European republicanism) supports and colludes with the Judean power until at a certain point God Himself breaks the alliance and causes the Roman/European power to attack and destroy the Judean power effectively annihilating it. This is the ten horns turning on the woman and burning her flesh with fire until she is utterly and totally destroyed. Once that is done, the beast (Roman/European power) gathers the kings and nations of the earth into a global alliance against Christ but will be destroyed. This is the "battle of Armageddon" described in Revelation 19. I don't want to get ahead of things but I do NOT believe the battle of Armageddon is a description of a literal military battle somewhere in Palestine, but a symbolic representation of the final gasp of rebellious sinful man against the Reign of Christ prior to the appearing of the Lord and the occurrence of the first resurrection.
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Old 07-03-2020, 09:48 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

That was good Esaias. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I have to think through it.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:29 AM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Esaias, I noticed that you never mentioned the Antichrist. I don’t generally care for discussions on revelations, but am having one with a person right now.

This is their view:

Quote:
1 John 2:18, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”

In this scripture, John is referencing the “Antichrist” singular, that will come, as well as “antichrists” plural, which will exist throughout time.

There is a clear distinction between the two. The singular Antichrist is the end time world government dictator, that will be cast into the lake of fire:


Daniel 7:11, “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast (Antichrist) was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.”


Revelation 19:20, “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
So, my question is, would it be right to call the Beast the Antichrist. Antichrist is never written as a proper noun, just a false ideology. Then again, the devil is never written that way either. IDK, all the terms are confusing.

I don’t want to call a person a name they aren’t given in the Bible, unless I John 2:8 is identifying “the antichrist” as the Beast. Yes, I was taught that, but have never been sure what I believe about Revelations. Everyone generally has good points to a degree.
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Old 07-03-2020, 11:55 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Esaias, I noticed that you never mentioned the Antichrist.
That's because "the Antichrist" is a non Biblical myth, the Bible never says anything about "the Antichrist".

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Old 07-03-2020, 01:52 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
That's because "the Antichrist" is a non Biblical myth, the Bible never says anything about "the Antichrist".

I agree. I see this more clearly. Some are reading this as a person, but it is saying this ideology/theology (as both are in play) shall come, even now there are many antichrists.


1 John 2:18, “Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists...”
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Old 07-04-2020, 05:46 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

I found some interesting information. The Ottoman Empire was basically the last Caliphate. So the actual "Empire" started his beginning with the Mohammed Caliphate and conquered the Israel territory around 630-640.

So we can say that the Caliphate Empire started around 600 and fell in 1920. The fall became a reality by the occupation of Constantinople in 1918 by the French, British and Italian forces.

It is interesting that the Roman Empire divided in two: Western and Eastern, and since then resisted the different Caliphate invasions over the centuries, to finally defeat it in 1920. The Western side ended up separated in individual nations, but the Eastern part stayed united for a long time as what we call today the Byzantine Empire.

Something also that caught my attention today is how all those beasts represent human systems. Some are worse than others, but they are all beasts. Another interesting thing is that all the beasts that we can identify with certain systems of the past, are empires that at some point dominated the land of Abraham.

Last edited by coksiw; 07-04-2020 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 07-05-2020, 08:25 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Now look at this quote from the Ellicott’s commentary.

Quote:
But what is the seventh, the other who is not yet come? We must recall the appearance of the wild beast. It had seven heads and ten horns. Where were these ten horns? It seems generally admitted that they were all on the seventh head. The seventh head, which represents the seventh kingdom, or manifestation of the world principle which is described as not yet come, then, was different in appearance from the others. It was ten-horned. It had not the same unity of appearance as the others. Now the ten horns are explained as ten kings or minor powers (Revelation 17:12). The conclusion, therefore, is that the seventh head must be rather an aggregation of monarchies than a single universal empire. This agrees with Daniel’s prophecy that out of the fourth kingdom, which corresponds, as we have seen, with the sixth head of the wild beast here, ten kings should arise (Daniel 7:7; Daniel 7:23-24).
The seventh kingdom (the ten-horned head) it is said will, when it arises, continue a “short time.” The short time is probably the same as the “one hour” in Revelation 17:12, where the ten kingdoms, represented by the ten horns, receive power one hour with the wild beast.
Here they make the seventh kingdom, the kingdom of the man of sin itself, probably right before it rises.

Last edited by coksiw; 07-05-2020 at 08:31 AM.
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