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Old 11-26-2014, 02:27 AM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Am I right about the trinity?

First of all I would love to get some thoughts from actual trinity believers on this.

I firmly believe the problem that oneness believers have with the trinity is more a problem of presentation than substance. Now before I get 100+ objections hear me out on this.

A trinity believer typically presents three main points in any explanation on the trinity:

1. God is one being that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit.
3. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God.

This presentation is confusing because "The trinity believer seems to use two different definitions for God"

1. God is defined as a being that is the Father Son and Holy Spirit
2. The Father is defined as God in a different way (typically God here simply refers to divine)

These apparent conflicting definitions lead to two incorrect inferences about what the trinity teaches.

1. The trinity teaches 3 Gods because they say the Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God and at the same time say the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit.
2. The trinity teaches that God is the one being that is the Father Son and Holy Spirit. Since the Father is not the Father Son and Holy Spirit then this implies the Trinity believer doesn't actually believe the Father is God.

I propose all the objections and misunderstandings and mystery around the trinity can be resolved if the trinity believer simply starts acknowledging that the trinity is going to use a single definition for God. That definition should be the one he started with, God is one being that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So when he says the Father is God he simply needs to acknowledge that the Father is the one being that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When he says the Son is God he simply needs to acknowledge that the Son is the one being that is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and so on....

OBJECTION!!!!! Aren't those statements some kind of contradiction that needs avoided and thus why the trinity believer started explaining the trinity with two definitions of God in the first place?

MY ANSWER! Saying "the Father is the one being that is the Father Son and Holy Spirit" isn't actually a contradiction. However, if we were to say the Father is the Father Son and Holy Spirit that would be a contradiction due to the fact that it's already been said that the Father is not the Son. I hope that distinction is clear. If not maybe I can try to elaborate on it later.

So once its admitted that the Father is the one being that is the Father Son and Holy Spirit it becomes clear how the trinity teaches there is one God and how the Father is God and how the Son is God and how the Holy Spirit is God and how the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit. In other words once this is admitted the trinity doesn't sound nearly as mysterious or hard to understand.

This is why I say it's a problem with presentation, because most trinity believers would have denied that the Father is the one being that is the Father Son and Holy Spirit out of the seeming contradiction it makes. However, if they had examined closer they would have realized that statement creates no contradiction and actually resolves most of the objections people have to the trinity.

Any opinions from trinity believers? Is this what the trinity doctrine is trying to teach?
Any opinions from oneness believers? Would you object to the trinity if the trinity was presented this way?

Am I right about any of this or am I way off in left field somewhere?
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Last edited by jfrog; 11-26-2014 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 11-26-2014, 06:50 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

ok, my reply to the last question is "yes."
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Old 11-26-2014, 07:05 AM
obriencp obriencp is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

I was raised oneness and still lean that way. However, when I openly and honestly talk to trinitarians, we agree on most everything. That leads me to believe all the judgementalism and fear I had toward them was based on what my oneness teachers/pastors wanted me to believe about them. Strawman anyone?

I still don't like the term "Person" and while I speak of the Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost), i think of it as the spirit of God or Jesus inside of us. When i hear some speak of the Holy Spirit, it seems as they think of it as a him or separate person from the Father and Jesus. Don't know if I'll ever really understand it.

Some of these threads really expose the fact that in oneness and in trinitarianism there are a lot of differing views.
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Old 11-26-2014, 08:00 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

yup--which seem to me to be tempests in teacups; manufactured to divide. While we may only directly interact with Three, God has seven Spirits, we are told. While i get why many, Prax, would say that we can know God, i still think there is a sense in which we cannot, or do not.
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Old 11-26-2014, 08:27 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

Quote:
Originally Posted by obriencp View Post
I was raised oneness and still lean that way. However, when I openly and honestly talk to trinitarians, we agree on most everything. That leads me to believe all the judgementalism and fear I had toward them was based on what my oneness teachers/pastors wanted me to believe about them. Strawman anyone?

I still don't like the term "Person" and while I speak of the Holy Spirit(Holy Ghost), i think of it as the spirit of God or Jesus inside of us. When i hear some speak of the Holy Spirit, it seems as they think of it as a him or separate person from the Father and Jesus. Don't know if I'll ever really understand it.

Some of these threads really expose the fact that in oneness and in trinitarianism there are a lot of differing views.
Perhaps this is why:

Jn 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
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Old 11-26-2014, 08:36 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

It's more than presentation. Trinitarians believe the Son existed for eternity and forever loved the Father and the Holy Ghost, and the experience was mutual. This eternal mutual interaction is just simply too polytheistic.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:41 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It's more than presentation. Trinitarians believe the Son existed for eternity and forever loved the Father and the Holy Ghost, and the experience was mutual. This eternal mutual interaction is just simply too polytheistic.

This goes with the fairy tale that says "God had this fellowship within himself so he wouldn't be lonely".


BUNK!! God was and is completely sufficient within himself. He lacked for nothing. Creation was an result not of his lack, but from his ABUNDANCE!

Even when I was a Trinitarian I scoffed at these silly notions.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:48 AM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It's more than presentation. Trinitarians believe the Son existed for eternity and forever loved the Father and the Holy Ghost, and the experience was mutual. This eternal mutual interaction is just simply too polytheistic.
When Jesus said He is Alpha and Omega, what is He referring to?

When Paul says the world was made by Jesus, what was he saying?

When Jesus speaks of the GLORY He shared with the Father from the begining, what was He talking about?

I believe that the Son existed before Bethlehem.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:51 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

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Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson View Post
When Jesus said He is Alpha and Omega, what is referring to?

When Paul says the world was made by Jesus, what was he saying?

When Jesus speaks of the GLORY He shared with the Father from the begining, what was He talking about?

I believe that the Son existed before Bethlehem.

The WORD that was "IN God" existed before Bethlehem. If he pre-existed IN God before the incarnation, then naturally he shared the glory of the God he was IN. In Mary's womb that WORD became flesh. That's where Sonship began.

Last edited by Originalist; 11-26-2014 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 11-26-2014, 09:57 AM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: Am I right about the trinity?

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
The WORD that "IN God" existed before Bethlehem. If he pre-existed IN God before the incarnation, then naturally he shared the glory of the God he was IN. In Mary's womb that WORD became flesh. That's where Sonship began.
"Who will go for us?"

"Before Abraham was, I AM."

"The same was in the begining with God."

Does anyone believe that one must believe that Jesus' Sonship didn't begin until the Immaculate Conception in order for someone to be saved?
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Last edited by Jermyn Davidson; 11-26-2014 at 10:00 AM.
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