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  #41  
Old 07-10-2010, 02:42 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

I have never been UPC. To me it seems it was a big mistake that the two former organizations compromised and came together in the first place.
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  #42  
Old 07-10-2010, 02:51 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegalist View Post
what is the position of the person? Unbeliever or covenant individual. To repent is to turn and take upon the yoke of Christ to the message delivered. You are not circumised from this body of sin until Baptism. In baptism by faith we are brought unto newness/covenant life. I am no UPCI though I know many in it etc... WHo knows what messing people have done with it. To me you can't hold both positions as a article of faith. THat's crazy!
Im just talking about forgiveness/remission. You are introducing other issues that was not even a part of the quote I posted from David Bernard/
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  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #43  
Old 07-10-2010, 02:53 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

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Originally Posted by OilCityCajun View Post
How can anyone commit fornication without at least 1 other person knowing?

Seriously, though. All of a sudden? I think not. People contemplate rebellion long before they act out on it. It just suddenly became obvious, as the fornication also will, eventually. This bothers me too. It's just that some sins are more obvious than others. For example, a cheating husband can "shout the victory" for years, but it only takes one whiff of cigarette smoke for one to be labelled a hypocrite. Neither is more nor less a sinner than the other, just some sins are more notice-able. The fact of the matter is, if the pastor preaches against trimmed hair, then disobedience is as the sin of witchcraft. If the pastor doesnt preach it, no one else has the authority to "call them out" on it because no one else will be held responsible for that person's soul.

Simple. Some who receive the power choose not to use it. And since the Spirit of God will not stay where sin is, when one doesnt use it, they lose it.

Why then the apparent distinction by Christ, Himself, between repentance and remission, as well as between swept and garnished? Are we going to now hear the often applied and rarely accurate "Kai defense"?
"All of a sudden" refers to how church people view a woman that trimmed her hair....the irony is that there can be a woman that does NOT trim her hair for fear of the peer pressure that is committing fornication and none of the church members will even know unless it is somehow revealed
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #44  
Old 07-10-2010, 02:54 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

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Originally Posted by OilCityCajun View Post
Why then the apparent distinction by Christ, Himself, between repentance and remission, as well as between swept and garnished? Are we going to now hear the often applied and rarely accurate "Kai defense"?
Christ did not distinguish remission of sins from repentance. He distinguished the word repentance from the word remission/forgiveness. They are two different words, like gun and bullet are, but it takes a gun to shoot a bullet
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #45  
Old 07-10-2010, 02:59 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

What happens to the sinner who places faith in Jesus Christ? He is justified. The word justified is a legal term denoting right standing or vindication in the eyes of the law. In the context of this verse, the verb “to justify” means “to count as righteous, to declare righteous.” God declares the believer to be righteous and therefore entitled to all privileges of that status, including eternal salvation. God removes the guilt and condemnation of sin. He removes sin’s stain both from His records and from man’s conscience. “A man who has faith is now freely acquitted in the eyes of God by his generous dealing in the Redemptive Act of Jesus Christ” pg. 89-90 (the last sentance is a quote from Phillips that Bernard uses)

Justification comes freely. It comes through faith, not works or legal obedience. Justification is not merited, earned, or deserved. The source of justification is the grace of God. pg.89

If we believe in Christ and what He did for us, then His work becomes effective in our lives.pg 92

In other words, the propitiation is effective because of two things: blood and faith. The propitiation itself came by the blood of Christ. We apply the propitiation to our lives through faith. The basis of justification, then, is the blood of Christ. pg.92

In summary, Romans 3:21-26 is one of the key passages of the Book of Romans and indeed of the entire Bible. It explains the fundamental principles of salvation for all mankind and enunciates the doctrine of justification by faith: on the basis of Christ’s death, God freely declares sinners to be righteous through their faith in Jesus Christ. pg. 94

God counts us righteous because of our faith in Him, not because of good works or strict adherence to law. We are justified “apart from the deeds of the law.” We cannot earn salvation in any way. God does not reward our good works or our holiness by granting salvation. We do not live holy in order to be saved; we live holy because we are saved. We do not work to salvation; we work from salvation. pg.95-96

“As Paul elsewhere shows, faith will result in obedience, and justification will issue in holy living, but the truth that justification is by faith alone is the very heart of Christianity.” pg. 96 (Bernard quotes Erdman)

Justification by faith does not mean mental acceptance instead of obedience, nor does it mean believing instead of doing. Rather it means pleading the merits of Christ instead of our own merits. p.100



Theres alot more. I have recently read William Barlcay's commentary on Romans and Warren Wieserbe's commentary on Romans. DKB's is almost verbatim, with the exception of the insertion of the "note of saving faith" which appears beginning on page .99, in which note he equates saving faith with obedience to Acts 2:38 (as interpreted by the three stepper crowd). My point being, lets just allow the word to speak to us, and not redefine what it says, or say "well it says this, BUT it really means this." IOW, let me change the definition of faith, then I can say the same things all the mainstream guys do. Basically what it boils down to, because even though Bernards comments basically mirror what I have read from others, His meaning is completely different.
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  #46  
Old 07-10-2010, 05:19 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

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Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
1. It's been murky for a long time (remission/forgiveness) I still hear the thing about "forgiveness occurs at repentance" and "remission occurs at baptism" which of course does not acknowledge the fact the terms are used interchangeably at times.

2. About the "no creeds" position - it is likely fostered by the refusal to accept the Nicene creeds and others like it. Perhaps, they should publish the UPCIAOF "creed" along with it's development from the merger and other subsequent changes.
1. The same Greek word is used for remission and forgiveness. Some who used only the KJV English version used to teach that forgiveness happens at repentance and remission happens at baptism. The AoF was originally taken mostly from the PCI manual so it mentioned forgiveness at repentance. I don't know if it still reads that way or not. Now that we have other versions of the Bible (some Bibles say "forgiveness" in Acts 2:38) and a more educated clergy with some Greek study we can't really say that any more so some just say forgiveness/justification takes all three steps.

2. Reckon the UPC hierarchy would be honest enough to show the evolution/change of the AoF for everyone to see? Wouldn't this cause some questioning among the unwashed hoi-polloi?
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  #47  
Old 07-10-2010, 05:22 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
The AOF don't say remission happens at baptism
well, in 1973 the fundamental doctrine statement was revised to say that it happens at baptism.
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  #48  
Old 07-10-2010, 05:23 PM
TheLegalist TheLegalist is offline
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Im just talking about forgiveness/remission. You are introducing other issues that was not even a part of the quote I posted from David Bernard/
my statement deals directly with that issue when one understands what authority is brought by covenant life. To simply forgive is to look to something. A believer looks TO Christ. A new believer HEARS and asks and that is realized in baptism. The covenant member asks God with true repentance with covenant position. God is faithful. Thus the authority is a looking back to the inital aspects of covenant entry and authority of BOTH parties.

Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-10-2010 at 05:27 PM.
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  #49  
Old 07-10-2010, 05:25 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

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Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
Understood. I don't shun creeds necessarily. The Apostles Creed works for me - with Catholic meaning "universal".
Amen
in my opinion the Apostles' Creed is Christianity 101.

Also, in my opinion, a person who believes and confesses the Apostles' Creed is justified/saved/born again according to John 3:16; Romans 10:8-13; 1 John 5:1
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  #50  
Old 07-10-2010, 05:26 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
If this is so, why do most people who go through all three steps fall away? Why is sin so prevalent in "holiness" churches? Why are the rates of marital infidelity, teen pregnancy and divorce identical for those who have done the "Three Step" as they are for the general population of unregenerate sinners?
well, aren't they pretty much the same for one-steppers also?
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