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  #41  
Old 08-24-2019, 01:52 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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The reign of Christ started before 70 AD, as the Apostles testified according to your own verse, yet they also said Satan is still working on this world: therefore, all the reasoning that Christ can't reign unless Satan is bound as in Revelation is wrong doctrine, and different than what the Apostles taught.

Sister, I think you got it, but I'm just trying to clarify what has been developing already on this thread.
Who is saying Jesus can't reign unto Satan is bound? No one. We're just saying Satan was bound because he was limited from what he could do before the cross. That's nothing to do with Jesus ruling or not. The fact is he is ruling. And satan is active but he is bound to not be as free as he was before the cross. We can now command the devil to flee. We can resist the devil.

But you're missing the point that the devil is only bound in Revelation 20 to not gather all the nations at once against the church. That's not a binding to render him totally unable to do anything.

But the question of future Millennium is another question altogether.

1 cor 15 gives words that disallow a future millennium. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed. Jesus is the man who brought resurrection from the dead. And that's when Paul explained resurrection of the Church, when those who are Christ's at his coming occurs, is when death is defeated. The last enemy. And the bottom of the same chapter says that that the victory taken from the grave and the sting taken away from death is when mortality is swallowed up of immortality when the trumpet sounds and the resurrection occurs, that's when death is defeated. That's when your rapture takes place. The defeat of death at the rapture is the last enemy death being destroyed. No room for a future Millennium if the rapture destroys death at that time. The Millennium is a spiritual picture of the period we're in now.

The defeat of death in verse 26 is the same defeat of verses 54 and 55. And verses 54 and 55 are talking about the rapture. We can't separate the coming of Jesus in verse 23 from verses 52 to 56. There birth saying death is defeated. And Jesus rules now until that time according to verse 25.

Again, psalm 110:1 says he rules UNTIL enemies are under his feet. Not UNTIL AFTER.
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  #42  
Old 08-24-2019, 01:59 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post

I definitely agree that Christ is the Lord who rules over the world, and reigns as a King over his kingdom . Entering into the Kingdom of Jesus is optional:

[Jhn 3:5 NASB] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You can't enter into the Kingdom of God unless you are born again.
exactly. But that's the rule psalm 110:1 was talking about . And it's the man ruling.

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Those that don't join his Kingdom now, while is spiritual, will not be there when his Kingdom is physically manifested.
how will it physically manifest?

Jesus said his kingdom is not coming with observation so you can physically see it. You can't ever say it is there or it is here physically. The Bible never says a transition between non physical and physical would occur with the kingdom. It says he rules now until the rapture takes place.
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[Col 3:4 NASB] 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

[1Jo 3:2-3 NASB] 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope [fixed] on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
where do any of those verse even say kingdom? They only say Christ will appear. They don't say the kingdom will appear.

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Few people has said here that if I believe that Christ reigns over the whole planet, it will change my life and perspective tremendously.
I prefer to really believe in the resurrection from the dead and that my King will come back and make his Kingdom revealed physically one day, with his resurrected saints.
Christ will come again. The resurrection will occur and we will see him come. But that doesn't mean the kingdom is not already ruling. I believe it will intensify, but not that it will begin. It will magnify. But the kingdom itself won't be physical. We will see postcards kingdoms end all around us that are not of God. But his kingdom already started and will magnify them.
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That hope really encourages me and helps me, and as 1John 3:3 says "And everyone who has this hope [fixed] on Him purifies himself"
Agreed. But that didn't mean Jesus is not already ruling now over everything he'll ever rule over.
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  #43  
Old 08-24-2019, 02:26 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
No room for a future Millennium if the rapture destroys death at that time.
Your previous arguments don't proof that point. Could you please explain more in details how that it is?
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  #44  
Old 08-24-2019, 02:32 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
how will it physically manifest?
Brother what do you think the second coming is about?

[2Ti 2:12 NASB] 12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

[Rev 5:10 NASB] 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

[Rev 11:15 NASB] 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become [the kingdom] of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

[Rev 20:6 NASB] 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

[Rev 22:5 NASB] 5 And there will no longer be [any] night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


That's the millennial, the same event you deny as literal.
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  #45  
Old 08-24-2019, 03:30 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Brother what do you think the second coming is about?

[2Ti 2:12 NASB] 12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

[Rev 5:10 NASB] 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

[Rev 11:15 NASB] 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become [the kingdom] of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

[Rev 20:6 NASB] 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

[Rev 22:5 NASB] 5 And there will no longer be [any] night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


That's the millennial, the same event you deny as literal.
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  #46  
Old 08-24-2019, 03:33 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post

Brother what do you think the second coming is about?
it's about what the Bible says. Jesus rules until all enemies are under his feet. The last one is death that occurs at the second coming.
Quote:
[2Ti 2:12 NASB] 12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

[Rev 5:10 NASB] 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
We are already a kingdom of priests.

1pet 1:..9....But ye..are..a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:..

Revelation 1:..6....And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him..be..glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Quote:

[Rev 11:15 NASB] 15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become [the kingdom] of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

[Rev 20:6 NASB] 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

[Rev 22:5 NASB] 5 And there will no longer be [any] night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

That's the millennial, the same event you deny as literal.
Rev 1:1 says the visions are signifying the actual. Get me teachings from a passage not in the signifying visions of Revelation. The symbolize the truths the apostles and Jesus taught.
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  #47  
Old 08-24-2019, 03:36 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post

Your previous arguments don't proof that point. Could you please explain more in details how that it is?
It's right there. Death is the last enemy destroyed when the rapture takes place. No more enemies after that. Your teaching says there are enemies after that. That's when he hands the kingdom to the Father, when you're saying he begins ruling a physical kingdom after the rapture plus seven years of pretrib thoughts, or right away after post trib rapture .

I'll lay it out more clearly when I get time. The end comes at the rapture , not after the rapture plus a thousand years.
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-24-2019 at 03:40 PM.
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  #48  
Old 08-24-2019, 03:55 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

It's right there. Death is the last enemy destroyed when the rapture takes place. No more enemies after that. Your teaching says there are enemies after that. That's when he hands the kingdom to the Father, when you're saying he begins ruling a physical kingdom after the rapture plus seven years of pretrib thoughts, or right away after post trib rapture .

I'll lay it out more clearly when I get time. The end comes at the rapture , not after the rapture plus a thousand years.
The second coming is to bring that last enemy death under. It's by mortality putting on immortality to end all enemies. That's the whole point of 1cor 15.
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-24-2019 at 04:12 PM.
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  #49  
Old 08-24-2019, 08:09 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Jesus has a law, subjects, and a people that obey him. This describes the Church. It by no mean describes the world.

Now at any given time Jesus can intervene with anyone and do anything he wants with them.
Jesus is King over Israel (Luke 1:32-33), and over all the earth (Matthew 28:18). The earth is unfortunately in rebellion, but Christ is in the process of subduing His enemies. He has defeated them already in a spiritual and typological sense, but is in the process of manifesting His victory over them in the "here and now". The church's mandate is to herald His victory and reign to every nation and teach them to submit to His divine law-word.

Dispensationalism in particular, and futurism in general, detracts from the reality of His present reign. According to them He is King now only in a religious sense, a sort of poetic license. He will not ACTUALLY have dominion until the Second Coming ("And we will crown Him, crown Him, crown Him... Lord of all'").

Maybe I'm not finding the right words to clearly express what I have observed over the years. But to put it bluntly, dispensationalists and most futurists do not seem, to me, to fully grasp the enormity of the truth that Jesus is actually - right now - the genuine LEGAL reigning monarch of not only the tribes of Israel but of the whole planet. He is LITERALLY just as genuinely a Lawful monarch as the Queen of England ever could be. More so, even.

This lack of grasping the truth concerning His reign manifests in a general surrender of the public sphere to the rebellious forces of satanic anarchy, because "It will get worse and worse and then the end shall come. But it will be better by and by. It's Bible prophecy." Further, such Christians seem incapable of responding to social issues in any effective way. I believe it is because they are sadly ignorant of the kingship of Christ as it is NOW.
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Old 08-24-2019, 09:17 PM
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ

From an older thread:

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Remarks:

1. As noted in my thread on The Son of Man, click here Daniel 7 is a vision depicting firstly the Messiah's ascension to power and enthronement as King (which was fulfilled in the events surrounding His death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven, through the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, and culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem), and secondly the saints' reception of the kingdom as co-heirs with Messiah, which occurs simultaneously with Christ's ascension to the throne since we are spiritually seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Also, as noted in that same thread (I think?) this dominion being given to the saints manifests through a process in the earthly realm "in this life". That is to say, the kingdom reality works itself out in the church as the church develops and matures. It is working towards a climax and consummation, which brings me to the next several points.

2. The Millennium, as depicted in Revelation chapter 20, is unfortunately viewed by many as being the extent of "the kingdom". That is to say, a great many, being poisoned by the errors of dispensationalism in particular and futurism in general, are under the (false) impression that Jesus is "yet to be crowned", that the saints have no dominion at present and will not until the Millennium commences, and that the Millennium constitutes essentially the entirety of the "reign of the saints" in the Plan of God. This is unfortunate, upon which my next point will expand.

3. The Millennium is a vision contained within the Apocalypse, as part of a series of visions, representing spiritual truths in symbolic form. It comprises, in actuality, a small part of the visions of the Revelation. The Millennium begins with the destruction of the beast and false prophet and the binding of the dragon in the bottomless pit, and lasts until the loosing of the dragon and the final battle with the forces of "Gog and Magog", climaxing in the final judgment of all mankind. The Millennium thus has a beginning and an end, within the vision. HOWEVER, it is an error to identify the Millennium with the reign of the saints, en toto.

4. The Millennium comes to an end, but there is no indication the saints then cease to rule and reign. It is therefore erroneous to limit the rule of the saints to the strict boundaries of the Millennium period. The Millennium is therefore simply one particular phase of the kingdom in which the saints reign.

5. In the beginning of the Revelation, it is said:
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
(Revelation 1:4-6)
According to the apostle John, Christ has already made His saints "kings and priests unto God". The saints are already reigning, because they have been made kings. It is therefore erroneous to identify the beginning of the reign of the saints with the beginning of the Millennium. The Millennium is not co-extensive with the kingdom, or the reign of the saints, either in regards to the start, or the end. Again, the Millennium is simply one particular phase of the reign of the saints. Therefore, the Millennium is simply one particular phase of the Kingdom. It is not the Kingdom in and of itself. The Kingdom is not the Millennium, and neither is the Millennium the Kingdom. The Kingdom contains within itself the Millennium, which is actually a small part of the Kingdom.

6. Whether you are premillennialist (as I am) or postmillennialist, it is an error to swallow the Kingdom, or the reign of the saints, into the Millennium, so as to imply that there is no reign of the saints until the Millennium. We need to understand that we have been made kings and priests unto God, and that this is a present reality. And because it is a present reality, that will extend and grow and increase into the future, it follows that if we fail to do our royal and priestly duty NOW, we will forfeit the opportunity to fulfill any future royal and priestly duties. Jesus taught that faithful execution of responsibilities when they are small, and in their beginning stages, is required for promotion to greater responsibility and authority (Luke 16:10-12). Therefore, we must conclude that we are, at present, in a testing phase in which we have been committed a certain amount of spiritual authority as kings and priests. And, that unless we faithfully execute those duties and responsibilities, and faithfully exercise that authority, we will not be given more. But, on the other hand, if we do fulfill our duties, and exercise our authority properly, we will enjoy a future expansion of that authority and corresponding responsibility.

7. The Scripture presents the Millennium as a period in which earthly governments (the nations) are submitted to the authority of God via the reign of the righteous saints of God. According to the vision, there is no rebellion against the Kingdom of God going on during that time. Since (as anyone can clearly see) that condition does not exactly and literally prevail at present, people make the erroneous conclusion that there is no reigning of the saints at present. This is error. Before the nations will be submitted to the righteous in such a way as to correspond to the conditions described by the Millennium, the saints must exercise the present reign they have been given.

8. The present reign of Christ over the nations is two-fold. First, as the Sovereign Deity, He holds Providential sway over all nations, determing their bounds, their histories, rise and fall, successes and failures, etc. But this has always been the case, and always will be the case. It is in the second sense, Christ's reign AS CHRIST, as the SON OF MAN and the SON OF DAVID, His MEDIATORIAL Reign, that concerns us in this discussion. That Mediatorial Reign is one in which He is heralded as King and Priest, seeking to draw to Himself by the Word of the Gospel those who will willingly submit to His rule. Christ is not at present sending fire from heaven down upon His enemies as the five cities of the plain experienced in Abraham's day. The growth and expansion of His Kingdom is primarily through evangelism and discipling (teaching) of the nations, not through forcible conquest and Divine retribution against His enemies. But this brings up the next point:

9. If the church considers it's mission to simply "get folks saved so they can make heaven their home" then the church is woefully failing in it's primary mission. The Great Commission charges the church with teaching the nations to OBEY CHRIST IN ALL THINGS, not getting them to "join the church" and pass their time waiting for death or a rapture. Our kingshipis a priestly kingship, modelled on Christ's, His being of the order of Melchizedek, who was both a priest and a king. Therefore, our reigning includes mediatorial priest duties. And the priest's job description includes that of teaching the Law (the Word of God) to the people, and promoting obedience.

So it is time we start looking into just what exactly is involved in the authority we have been given as kings and priests, HERE AND NOW, and begin to act accordingly. The Millennium will work itself out, but we need to work out the salvation we have been given, that is to say, we need to begin to manifest the salvation God has made available for us so the nations will see and hear and submit to God.
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