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  #21  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:25 PM
BCsenior BCsenior is offline
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
If God is one and Jesus is God no one else can be.
So if we start with the foundation of Deut 6:4
there must be a way Jesus is the only God and yet....be his Son.
Deut. 6:4 vs. many NT verses.

It seems obvious that God did NOT reveal Himself
in the old covenant as a Triune God.
Too confusing for people who did NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will come ... and ...
"He will teach you all things" (John 14:26).
All spiritual things.

Those who are not born-again ...
will NOT have all spiritual things taught to them.
True in both OT and NT.

Last edited by BCsenior; 08-08-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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  #22  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:36 PM
BCsenior BCsenior is offline
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Isaiah 9:6 says expressly the Son is the EVERLASTING FATHER!
The 3 Persons (Manifestations) of the Triune Godhead
are so in perfect unity with one another that They, in effect, are One.

The NT also says that Jesus is the Spirit.
The NT never says Jesus is the Father.

Most importantly, there are several NT verses which say:
Jesus is equal to the Father.
NOT Jesus is the Father, but Jesus is equal to the Father!
These verses are in the OP.

Welcome to the Trinity, Mikey.

Last edited by BCsenior; 08-08-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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  #23  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:26 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
Deut. 6:4 vs. many NT verses.

It seems obvious that God did NOT reveal Himself
in the old covenant as a Triune God.
Too confusing for people who did NOT have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will come ... and ...
"He will teach you all things" (John 14:26).
All spiritual things.

Those who are not born-again ...
will NOT have all spiritual things taught to them.
True in both OT and NT.
Brother, it is a known fact that the Trinity is an extract-biblical "revelation". Even Trinitarian theologians recognize that. Saying that the Trinity was a progressive revelation that is completed in the NT doesn't have a good foundation.
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  #24  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:36 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

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Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
The 3 Persons (Manifestations) of the Triune Godhead
are so in perfect unity with one another that They, in effect, are One.
Could you please prove this better? How three distinct persons can be the same God? One God means ONE. ONE mind, one heart one consciousness. Could you please find one single case in history of a religion saying something like "one god" but "N persons"? The "One God but N person" is a stretch of the language. It doesn't even make sense. That concept was an innovation of the Trinitarians.

Quote:
The NT also says that Jesus is the Spirit.
The NT never says Jesus is the Father.
So how many Spirit persons are? How many Holy Spirits are?

Quote:
Most importantly, there are several NT verses which say:
Jesus is equal to the Father.
NOT Jesus is the Father, but Jesus is equal to the Father!
These verses are in the OP.
Again, they don't prove the trinity, they can be explained with Oneness as well without stretching the language.

Do you really think the Apostles, Jews people, changed from monotheism to trinity and nobody accused them of being polythesim? If they had taught Trinity, then we would have seen the accusations and them trying to say clearly that there is a still one God but three persons. For obvious reasons, that debate never got recorded, because the early Christian were not Trinitarians, and the Jews people against the Christians never accused the Apostles of being polytheist. And no, it wasn't "implied", there is no historical record I'm aware of that had a concept of "one god but N persons". That would have been a brand new concept for the early church and the community around them.

Quote:
Welcome to the Trinity, Mikey.
Oh no...

Last edited by coksiw; 08-08-2019 at 01:40 PM.
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  #25  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:51 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

[Jhn 1:1-5 NKJV] 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John is starting with creation: "in the beginning."


In the beginning was the Word -> God would first express with words his will, e.g "Let there be light"
the Word was with God -> The manifestation expressing the utterance was working together with the Spirit of God creating things. It was a sequence of Word -> Miracle, Word -> Miracle. That's the way God wanted to do the creation: speaking the Word first, expressing his will and therefore his nature first.
the Word was God -> the expression of his will with the spoken words was done by God himself.

That spoken Word kept expressing God's will, nature, desires, etc..., the same way that when we speak words, we express our will, nature, desires, etc...:

[Gen 3:9-10 NKJV] 9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, "Where [are] you?" 10 So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself."

That Word kept coming to human beings expressing God's will, nature, desires for all of us, through the Torah and the Prophets. And that is light and has the power to bring life.

[Jhn 5:39 NKJV] 39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

The Word became flesh -> Jesus is the expression of his nature, will, desires, the fulfillment of the laws and the prophets.

Note: I know some people try to explain this with the concept of Logos from the Greeks, but you can explain it with the Bible itself: John was a Jew. He may have used words from Greek but the concepts are present in the Bible itself.

Last edited by coksiw; 08-08-2019 at 01:59 PM.
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  #26  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:53 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

BC

Quote:
The 3 Persons (Manifestations) of the Triune Godhead
are so in perfect unity with one another that They, in effect, are One.
To true Trins there are NOT three manifestations. There are three co equal co eternal persons each one distinct as God from the other two.

Meanwhile Oneness affirms three manifestations of one true God.

Quote:
The NT also says that Jesus is the Spirit.
Oneness agrees but Trins do NOT confess Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
The NT never says Jesus is the Father.
If Jesus is God he is the Father.

1 Cor 8:5-6

5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Note Paul says there is ONE GOD.....the Father. Whoever is God is the Father and nobody else is. There is only one.

Note that Paul says with equal strength there is ONE LORD. The truth of one Lord is as steadfast as one God, the Father.

Thomas, an apostle of Jesus said HE WAS BOTH!

John 20:28-29

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

To Thomas Jesus was the Lord. There is only one Lord.

To Thomas Jesus was God.

There is only one God according to Paul. Thats the Father.

If Jesus is Lord Jesus is God.

If Jesus is God Jesus is God the Father according to Paul.

Paul knew the truth better than the Trins who came along later.
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  #27  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:17 PM
JamesGlen JamesGlen is offline
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

1 John 3:1
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

In the above verse, WHO does this verse say the Him is, of which they did not know?


Likewise, who is the below verse, WHO is the Him that they did not know or recognize?

John 1:10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him.



John 8:19
They said to him therefore, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
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  #28  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:25 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

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Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
Okay, how is Jesus (often) praying to the Father explained?
There are several lines of truth that explain how Jesus is the Father but he is praying to the Father.

I will start with the most simple, yet the most despised.

Who is the Father of Jesus?

Peter knew.

Acts 3:13

Quote:
13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
I agree fully with Pete. The Father of Jesus is the GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISSAC, AND JACOB.

Do you agree? If you say yes we can move on to the next question.

Who is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob?

Moses met him in Exodus 3:4-6

4And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Here we see the one Apostle Peter said was the Father of Jesus. Amen?

Exodus 3:13-15

13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Now we can see plainly the identity of the God of Abe, Issac, and Jacob. He is called I AM. Amen?

So I AM is the Father of Jesus Christ according to Apostle Peter in Acts 3:13.

If we miss this we will never be able to identify the Father of Jesus.

NOW.....who is Jesus?

John 8:56-59

56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Ok the Father of Jesus is I AM. Agreed?

Jesus is I AM agreed?

Are there two I AM's?

Or is Jesus BOTH........the Father and the Son?

Is Jesus the I AM the Father of Jesus? Is that Bible?

Isaiah 9:6

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Did Isaiah say the Christ would be BOTH......The Father and the Son?

Did Jesus confirm it?

John 14:7-9


7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus reproved Phil for seeking to know the Father except by him! All Phil wanted was to know the Father APART FROM JESUS. The same thing Trins claim as part of their orthodox faith!

So who is the Father of Jesus? You tell me.
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  #29  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:38 PM
BCsenior BCsenior is offline
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

It's a-gonna take some time to absorb all of this!

Meanwhile ...

I'm only interested in the NT, and you should be also!
I've already explained why God did not reveal Himself
as 3 Manifestations in the OT.

Jesus often prayed to His Father in heaven!

Several verses clearly say that Jesus was equal to the Father!
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  #30  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:48 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: NT verses about who Jesus was/is

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Originally Posted by BCsenior View Post
It's a-gonna take some time to absorb all of this!

Meanwhile ...

I'm only interested in the NT, and you should be also!
I've already explained why God did not reveal Himself
as 3 Manifestations in the OT.

Jesus often prayed to His Father in heaven!

Several verses clearly say that Jesus was equal to the Father!
Take all the time you need friend. Are you Zachery B on the City Data Christian Forum?

If you dont study the OT with the NT how will you rightly divide the word of truth?

Did you read what I just posted? Who is the Father of Jesus? The one he prayed to?

Was Jesus in Heaven at the same time he was on Earth?

John 3:13

Quote:
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Yes he was still in Heaven at the same time he was on Earth. Agreed?

Start putting this concept together with the concept of Jesus praying to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

You will NEVER arrive at the truth if you leave out the OT.
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