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  #71  
Old 08-23-2019, 01:19 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: One In The Greek

I bought a Holman Bible KJV the other day. I was surprised when the only reference underneath John 1:1 was Proverbs 8:22.
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  #72  
Old 08-23-2019, 01:34 PM
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Re: One In The Greek

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He misunderstood Philippians 2, it has nothing to do with Jesus "before the incarnation". A very common error, and an example of numerous catholic, trinitarian traditions still holding people's minds captive.
What did he misunderstand?
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  #73  
Old 08-23-2019, 01:52 PM
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Re: One In The Greek

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
What did he misunderstand?
He believed Philippians 2 was about Christ before He incarnated. It is not. It is about Christ being the second Adam.
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  #74  
Old 08-23-2019, 01:54 PM
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Re: One In The Greek

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
So I've been reading the book and am finally to the place where he describes the Word being the visible form of God. It's stimulated a lot of thought.

Why do you think something that is seen would be described as "Word" when a word is something heard?
Spirit is breath. Word is vocalised breath, ie expressed spirit. So the Word is the expression of the Spirit.
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  #75  
Old 08-23-2019, 08:47 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: One In The Greek

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
If you mean Oneness doctrine, my old Charismatic turned Oneness Pastor taught it to me first. ...

He told me later he had heard it taught by John Eckstat in the UPC.

Elder Ross Drysdale of the PAW wrote IMO the best all around book on Oneness I ever saw.

Gordon Magee taught God had a visible form in the OT in his book Is Jesus In The Godhead Or Is The Godhead In Jesus.

There is a brother on Facebook Mark August who has written some good articles on the Logos featuring early Church beliefs and showing how the doctrine was lost over time.

There was a book out years ago by Pastor James Edding where he featured the "form" of God quite similar to what I believe.

Brother Irvin Baxter believes in the LOGOS/Angel doctrine. It is online in a teaching called understanding the Godhead. Unfortunately he spends only 5 minutes or so on it.

... a short video I made called Explaining Modalism as concerning John 1:1 in OT times. I'm sure most would say its to simplistic.

The chief book for teaching Oneness doctrine in older times was by John Patterson GOD IN CHRIST JESUS. It is out of print. Used to have it, loaned it out. Gone.
Thanks for this doctrinal review.

Would you say the Logos doctrine is an alternative to the two natures doctrine? I see that the Gordon Magee book does have a "dual nature" section.

And I am surprised a bit that you would accept the term "modalism" as having any real substance.

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I had heard one time, I believe, that Magee's book was heavily edited by David Bernard while he was the associate editor of Word Aflame.
And I would like to know more about this aspect. Let's conjecture that this is true.

Is the original version available? Do we have some bio info on Gordon Magee. Anybody know if the Word Aflame Press has been contacted? World Aflame has a copyright notice, but that should only apply to the edited version, and did those edits have the approval of Gordon Magee?

And I do see there was some additional discussion.
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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Don't forget Michael Servetus' On the Errors of the Trinity! Best book I've read on the subject.
Any good discussions of the book? The Unitarians try to claim the book for their doctrines, clearly that is incorrect. Some of his doctrines were unique and unusual.

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Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
There are other books on the oneness of God. Most are out of print. One came in the post today. Frank Ewart wrote a book titled Jesus, Man and Mystery.
Have you read this? Not easily available. Would be nice to see even a page or two.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 08-23-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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  #76  
Old 08-24-2019, 07:34 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: One In The Greek

Quote:
Would you say the Logos doctrine is an alternative to the two natures doctrine? I see that the Gordon Magee book does have a "dual nature" section.
IMO the dual nature doctrine is true. Many years ago when you were still on Paltalk I remember asking you if you believed in Oneness. You said yes but "without all the dualism". I dont think we got a chance to finish that conversation. Did you mean you dont believe in the dual nature of Christ?

The doctrine of pre incarnate logos does SEEM somewhat akin to the doctrine of the dual nature of Christ. I'm not convinced it is EXACTLY the same because I dont see the angel/image being fully "angel" in nature, but rather in likeness or appearance.


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And I am surprised a bit that you would accept the term "modalism" as having any real substance.
Dont allow the Trins to define modalism. They try to force it to mean something it is not. They hearken to the words of Tertullian or Hippolytus who no doubt distorted the teachings of Sabelleius.

Oneness Christology is NOT sequential modalism but rather "simultaneous" modalism.

Jesus showed how it works clearly.

John 3:13

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In one mode of being Jesus was standing here on the Earth talking to Nicodemus. Yet, SIMULTANEOUSLY, or in another mode of being he was still in Heaven.

I believe he was in Heaven as the Mighty God, Everlasting Father. As such he was giving grace to, and leading his human Son in his goings everyday. He was watching over the affairs of the rest of the Earth as well of events in Heaven.

It was BOTH HIM. If anyone has a better way to describe this concept than "simultaneous modalism" I'm open.

In his human nature he was living life in the mode or realm in which humans live.

In his deity he was living in the same realm or mode of being he always had. As the ELOHIM.

Quote:
Is the original version available? Do we have some bio info on Gordon Magee. Anybody know if the Word Aflame Press has been contacted? World Aflame has a copyright notice, but that should only apply to the edited version, and did those edits have the approval of Gordon Magee?
The only thing I can say of a certainty concerning this is, the copy I own was not made by Word Aflame. I assume it is of the original run. And I can say it has been changed.

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Don't forget Michael Servetus' On the Errors of the Trinity! Best book I've read on the subject.
Quote:
Any good discussions of the book? The Unitarians try to claim the book for their doctrines, clearly that is incorrect. Some of his doctrines were unique and unusual.
I have heard it both ways about him. I had always used him as a witness for Oneness. I remember the last time AFF had this discussion I had found writings supposedly of him that were not Oneness.

Esaias then countered with writings supposedly of his that confirmed a Oneness stand.

As far as Frank Ewart we know he was the founder of the modern Oneness movement as we know it today. The book I have by him is PHENOMENON OF PENTECOST.

It is a Word Aflame publication, at least the one I have. It is truly a magnificent story. I cant believe he is hardly mentioned in Oneness circles I am aware of.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 08-24-2019 at 07:37 AM.
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  #77  
Old 08-24-2019, 03:54 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: One In The Greek

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
IMO the dual nature doctrine is true. Many years ago when you were still on Paltalk I remember asking you if you believed in Oneness. You said yes but "without all the dualism”
Not something I remember ever saying, or thinking.

And I often point out the dozens of dual addressing verses in the Epistles, and note that neither Oneness or Trinitarians speak in this way.

This has especially come up in looking at the highlight verses of the Granville Sharp Rule for Fools.
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  #78  
Old 08-24-2019, 05:27 PM
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Re: One In The Greek

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Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post

Would you say the Logos doctrine is an alternative to the two natures doctrine? I see that the Gordon Magee book does have a "dual nature" section.
Not speaking for MTD but I wouldn't say the Logos teaching is an "alternative to the two natures teaching" necessarily. Servetus points out the Scripture doesn't really concern itself with "Natures" (in the Aristotelian metaphysical sense"). The two natures teaching in a nutshell is that Jesus is both fully God and fully human, as I understand it.

Quote:
Any good discussions of the book? The Unitarians try to claim the book for their doctrines, clearly that is incorrect. Some of his doctrines were unique and unusual.

Have you read this? Not easily available. Would be nice to see even a page or two.
No good discussions anywhere I know of. We could start one, though.

I have a pdf copy of the full text of the English translation. Go here: https://archive.org/details/M.Servet...y19691531-1532

His writings are somewhat difficult for anyone unfamiliar with pre-20th century literature. Also, he wrote within a theological context dominated by near universal trinitarianism and Scholasticism, so his language must be understood in that light. That said, I disagree with some of his ideas, and others I would word differently. There may even be some internal inconsistencies (eg, in earlier parts he speaks of the divine Persons (plural) but in later parts he affirms there is only ONE Person of God).

But overall I have found his book to be the most thought provoking and over all accurate depiction of Scriptural Christology presented in "theological terms". A good second runner up (possibly more accessible to the reader) is James Dunn's Christology in the Making but that is actually a Biblical theology not a Systematic theology, so it's more of a ground laying treatise than a summary presentation.
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  #79  
Old 08-24-2019, 07:44 PM
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Re: One In The Greek

The bad news is the pdf I have is a scanned copy of the book, so I cannot copypaste any of the text.
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  #80  
Old 08-24-2019, 08:51 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: One In The Greek

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Not speaking for MTD but I wouldn't say the Logos teaching is an "alternative to the two natures teaching" necessarily. Servetus points out the Scripture doesn't really concern itself with "Natures" (in the Aristotelian metaphysical sense"). The two natures teaching in a nutshell is that Jesus is both fully God and fully human, as I understand it.



No good discussions anywhere I know of. We could start one, though.

I have a pdf copy of the full text of the English translation. Go here: https://archive.org/details/M.Servet...y19691531-1532

His writings are somewhat difficult for anyone unfamiliar with pre-20th century literature. Also, he wrote within a theological context dominated by near universal trinitarianism and Scholasticism, so his language must be understood in that light. That said, I disagree with some of his ideas, and others I would word differently. There may even be some internal inconsistencies (eg, in earlier parts he speaks of the divine Persons (plural) but in later parts he affirms there is only ONE Person of God).

But overall I have found his book to be the most thought provoking and over all accurate depiction of Scriptural Christology presented in "theological terms". A good second runner up (possibly more accessible to the reader) is James Dunn's Christology in the Making but that is actually a Biblical theology not a Systematic theology, so it's more of a ground laying treatise than a summary presentation.
Thank you very much for posting the link to Servetus's book!
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