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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #101  
Old 02-23-2018, 06:21 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

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Originally Posted by Raffi View Post
I would just like to say in fairness to Hebrew Root (HR) people, most of them are genuinely sincere people hungry to know God's Love the same as any other true Believer. Yes, I agree that in some cases there have been extremists among their circles. But that fact is no less true of Apostolic Pentecostals. Isolated extremists don't nullify the whole thing. I think we can all agree on that.

Someone on another related thread made mention that these Hebrew Root people don't even know how to speak Hebrew. To be fair, these people try their best to learn as much Hebrew as they can, with the scant resources available, and in a culture where the first language is overwhelmingly English. Many of these people came into Hebrew Roots late in life AFTER having learned English as their first (and often ONLY) language, and having been told for years that learning Hebrew is irrelevant to Faith. But if you knew Hebrew Root congregations, you would find that in almost ALL, the upcoming generation of young people are being taught Hebrew at breakneck speed. Fact is, not even most actual JEWS in America can speak Hebrew fluently. But I know as a fact that many of the young kids being brought up in Hebrew Root congregations can speak Hebrew better than most American Jews.

HR people are not wrong for wanting to learn about the historic/cultural/scholastic/and mental context from which Apostolic Christianity blossomed. And for most of them, embracing the cultural practice and expression of this is not as a way to copy, mimic, or imitate Jews, or be like Jews, rather most see it as a way to imitate Yeshua and be like Yeshua. These people are so in love with Yeshua that they want to literally be like him, dress like him, talk like him, think like him, eat like him. But that is really just a shallow description. Actually, the truth is, most HR people see the embracing of practices such as learning original Biblical Hebrew, wearing tzitzit, blowing shofars, dancing the hora, etc. all as an expression of worship. An added dimension of worship next to hymn-singing, raising hands, shouting, jumping, and singing in tongues. They don't see it as LARPing, unless one may define "role playing" here as "trying to be like Yeshua".

Just saying.

peace
I'm certain many are sincere. But the MOVEMENT seems to be a camel's nose slipping some Talmud under the tent.

Its one thing to be knowledgeable of rabbinic explanations and interpretations. It's another thing altogether when the rabbins become an authority on interpretation and application.

The LARPing has to do with folks who were first deceived by dispensationalism into thinking the modern people called Jews are "God's Chosen People" and the apple of His eye, who then decide they like Jewishness so much they want to try to act, talk, and live like Jews who "happen to love Jesus".

Our God is the Word made flesh, not a chabadnik from Crown Heights. One of the side effects can be seen right here on this forum: people get duped into confusing talmudism with Bible religion. They think HRM and Sacred Name types are "leading people back to Moses" when the danger is people being led to Pharisaism (Judaism).

Sacred Namism is an offshoot of rabbinic baal shem occultism (hence the gorillion different "true name" variants offered for our consumption and confusion). How many HRM people tie their tassels according to Pharisaic regulation? And so forth and so on.

It is UNDENIABLE that the HR movement is swamped with rabbinics and Talmudic thinking. Of course, the same is true of most Christendom, though in other more subtle ways.
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Last edited by Esaias; 02-23-2018 at 06:28 PM.
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  #102  
Old 02-25-2018, 08:51 AM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Brother Esaias,

Yes, I understand your concern about some of the things you mentioned. And I have learned your spirit from the Sabbath thread and I do not believe you intend to put all people of a group or movement necessarily all under one banner of this or that. I know you are merely expressing a certain concern that indeed IS a warranted one. But I know a LOT of the people in the HRM, including several of its leaders. I can tell you that very few legitimate HRM people respect Talmudic things. Most are vehemently ANTI-Talmud and part of the emphasis of the HRM is to push an idea of a Hebraic Messiah WITHOUT Talmudic innovation.

Back in the late 1990s when the Noahide Movement, the Hebrew Root Movement, and the Messianic Jewish Movement all three separated and went in different directions, it was the Noahides that mostly sided with the Talmudic rabbis, but it was the HRM leaders that staunchly argued against the Noahides and warned them that if they went the way of Vendyl Jones in the direction of Schneerson they would end up renouncing their faith in Yeshua (i.e., Tim Hegg, Jacob Prasch, Peter Michas, in particular argued this). The Messianic Jewish leaders such as Dan Juster and Russ ResniK also argued this even though the HRM leaders were already indicting the Messianic leaders for doing virtually the same thing by adopting certain Ashkinazic Jewish customs and mixing them with New Covenant worship. For the HRM people who believed in the ONE LAW DOCTRINE, the Messianics did not go far enough to restore a truly "Hebraic" form of New Covenant faith because they wanted to stay too close to European Jewish tradition. The 1996 convention that solidified the Hebrew Root Movement as a distinct identity from either the Messianic Jews AND the Noahides was clear in that the Hebrew Root leaders were returning to HEBREW roots and NOT "JEWISH" roots. Most HRM leaders I know are opposed to Talmudic Judaism.

I am not saying that all individual HRM people are opposed to Talmudic legalisms (I know that Michael Rood endorses Talmudism to some degree). But I know some of these guys personally. I am personal friends on a first name basis with Rico Cortes. He lives here in Kissimmee where I live, and he goes to a congregation here where I am friends with many of the members, including its "moreh" ('Teacher", they do not like to use the term "rabbi"). None of those folks agree with Talmudic Jewish innovations, but seek to return to an OLDER, more Bible-centered "Hebrew" interpretation. Rico Cortes as well as their congregation are completely non-trinitarian.

I am also personal friends with Moshe Koniuchowsky, who lives in Baker County, Florida. I have been to his household assembly several times. Moshe is fully Apostolic in his theology, and has recently formed an "Apostolic Alliance" with a HR leader from Australia. I knew Moshe back in 1998 when he was a partner with Ed Nydle. Around 2000 the two men parted company. In 2014 I asked Moshe to his face why he and Ned parted ways. He told me, Because Ed Nydle was beginning to lean too far toward Talmud and even toward Kabbalah. (I still think of Moshe Koniuchowsky as a friend, but last year he decided to adopt the Enoch Calendar and I disagreed with him. So he and I don't talk much these days).

And these two guys represent a vast slash, if not the majority of HRM's attitude toward Talmudism. So you see, although HRM points Christians toward Hebraic Roots, it does NOT point them toward Talmud, or even toward "Jewish" roots. HRM constantly warns AGAINST Talmudic innovation, and harbors deep grievances against Rabbinic Judaism, Messianic Judaism, and Noahide Christianity specifically BECAUSE of their Talmudic acceptances. Anti-Talmudism, therefore, could be said to be one of HRM's distinctive characteristics along with other very positive and uniquely HRM distinctives such as ONE LAW DOCTRINE, DIVINE INVITATION, and as in the case of MOST (though not all) the REDEEMED ISRAEL DOCTRINE. All HRM people that I have ever met or known about are anti-Dispensational and anti-Replacement, and even oppose Messianic Judaism's Olive-Tree Theology, but do accept the Remnant-Of-Israel Theory.

In my opinion, HRM has way too much of its own unique identity and distinctive beliefs, and far too strong a belief in the Lordship of Yeshua the Messiah for its people to too easily veer off into Talmudic Judaism of ANY kind.

Peace
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  #103  
Old 02-25-2018, 02:37 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

Thanks for the clarification, Raffi. A lot of people are looking for Hebrew roots because they are probably actually Hebrews and don't know it.

But you got to admit, the LARPing among some is too common and too much.
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  #104  
Old 02-25-2018, 02:40 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

There is also what I see as a current of "anti Greek" ism. And I think that is grossly misplaced. Hopefully it's just growing pains. Kyrie eleison should be in every Christian's hymnal vocabulary.
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  #105  
Old 02-25-2018, 03:19 PM
Raffi Raffi is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

I like Kyrie eleison too.
LOL
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  #106  
Old 02-25-2018, 04:53 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

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Originally Posted by Raffi View Post
I like Kyrie eleison too.
LOL
Wow I have not heard a modern version of this song. I loved the 60's version. Can you post a link?
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  #107  
Old 03-01-2018, 10:37 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

You are omitting a bit. Marshall (Moshe the K) is an example of totally deluded sacred namism, leading to:

animus against the name of Jesus
heavy promotion of the Jupiter entity — “yahweh” and the cohort yahshua
no pure Bible - following every Trimm-ish style corruption possible, or roll your own
falsely “propheying” that Hebrew NT would show up, watch for a Judean earthquake

With that kind of mess, does a quasi-oneness position mean much?

I trow not.

==========]

(FYI - I went to their PA shindig some years back)

Last edited by Steven Avery; 03-01-2018 at 10:44 PM.
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  #108  
Old 05-04-2018, 08:17 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Wow I have not heard a modern version of this song. I loved the 60's version. Can you post a link?

  #109  
Old 05-04-2018, 08:23 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
There is also what I see as a current of "anti Greek" ism. And I think that is grossly misplaced. Hopefully it's just growing pains. Kyrie eleison should be in every Christian's hymnal vocabulary.
Τhe forgotten thing is that Greek (except that is a very spicific and reach language) was the Gentile Language too!
So the gospel to the Gelntiles is written in the Gentile Language.
First to Jews (Matthew) and then to to Greeks (Gentiles) principle.
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  #110  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:19 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: Question on oneness doctrine?

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Originally Posted by Broseanrichard View Post
Can anyone help me figure this out. The father/lord is translated in the Old Testament as Yahweh(YHWH). In the New Testament we call messiah yeshua (Jesus). If Jesus is GOD(Yahweh) how does this work with 2 different names?
Even Jews never pronounced the secret name ,instinct of this they read LORD
In the new testament our Lord Jesus when ever quoted old testament scriptures he uses Lord too.
It is wonderful that my bible only uses Lord and how this title is given to Jes Christ!
The name was I AM WHO HE IS. Jews never write the name I AM but only the HE WHO IS and they pronounced like Lord.
"So Adonai (LORD) said to my Adoni (lord)"
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