Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Search For Similiar Threads Using Key Words & Phrases
"false prophecies"

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-13-2012, 08:26 AM
Big Dummy Big Dummy is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
Question How would you respond to these "false" prophecies?

below are a few quotes for examples,

[quote]
Difference #2: QUALITY
OT prophets: ministered infallibly, with 100% perfection
NT prophets: minister fallibly, with potential error

The Old Because of their unparalleled responsibility to establish a perfect Old Testament Scripture, God Himself ensured that
the quality of Old prophetic ministry was 100% perfect, or infallible. The prophets themselves, as people, were not perfect, but
their ministry certainly was. Consider it...how else could we have a perfect Old Testament in our Bibles today?

Deuteronomy 18:20 presents the standard of Old prophetic ministry as perfection. Prophets would be executed not only for
prophesying in the name of a false god, or prophesying incorrectly, but also for prophesying anything God Himself did not
initiate, even if it was technically correct (Deu 13:1,2). God would never demand such a ridiculous standard without also
providing a miraculous undergirding for His true prophets to fulfill it.
1Samuel 3:19,20 (and 9:6) illustrates this. God Himself ensured that not one of Samuel's prophetic words fell short, and
because of his prophetic perfection, all Israel recognized he passed the Deuteronomy 18:20-test. Isaiah 44:26 says the same,
that God Himself fulfilled and performed all the prophetic words of His true Old Testament prophets. Jeremiah 1:12 reiterates,
saying God personally watched over Jeremiah's prophetic word to fulfill it. Because of their unparalleled purpose (establish
Scripture), Old prophets likewise possessed unparalleled ministerial quality (infallibility). God Himself guaranteed this by
miraculously undergirding their every word.

The New New Testament prophets, on the other hand, are not ministerially infallible. Their prophesying might possess partial
or total inaccuracies.
New Testament Scripture shows us this.

The believers at Tyre prophesied to Paul not to go to Jerusalem
(Ac 21:4). This was a partially inaccurate word, because Paul himself felt compelled and bound by the Spirit to go to
Jerusalem (20:22NIV), which he in fact did (21:17). Yet Acts 21:4 says they spoke by the Spirit. How can both be true? The
explanation: the Tyrian believers received a genuine revelation from the Spirit concerning Paul's suffering and imprisonment in
Jerusalem, yet they misinterpreted and misapplied the revelation to say Paul should not go to Jerusalem at all. Genuine
revelation...faulty interpretation...faulty application. I'm sure we can all relate.
Agabus also prophesied partially inaccurately in Acts 21:10,11. Paul was indeed arrested, this part was accurate, but he was
not arrested by the Jews and handed over to the Romans by them. Verses 32 and 33 (and 23:27) tell us Paul's life had to be
forcibly saved by the Roman soldiers, who rescued him from the abusive Jewish mob who would have torn him to shreds and
killed him.
Paul joins Luke in his cognizance of prophecy's potential fallibility in the church age. In 1Corinthians 14:29, he tells believers to
judge, evaluate carefully, and thoroughly sift (Gk diakrino) prophetic words that are spoken. In 1Thessalonians 5:19-22 he
says the same, telling the church to separate the good from the bad in prophecy, while remaining open and positive towards
prophetic ministry in general. New prophecy, and all spiritual gifts, can be like a poor reflection in a mirror (1Co 13:2),
especially when used by the spiritually non-mature or inexperienced. The good news is, prophetic Christians can develop and
advance in their prophetic faculty, learning to minimize perceptive dilution to consistently prophesy reliably and accurately.
http://agapelifeministriesinc.com/pr...hetspart1.html
[\quote]
What is the best responses to these so-called false prophecies in the Bible?
[quote]
Specific biblical examples

Jonah

Be careful in how you apply Deut. 18:22, for you threaten to reject some true prophets in the Bible! There are examples where a true prophet prophesied something which did not happen as he stated, to the best of our knowledge. An example is found in the story of Jonah, who was told by God to prophecy to the people of Nineveh. Jonah prophesied that the people would be destroyed in 40 days (Jonah 3:4)—no loopholes were offered, just imminent doom. God changed things, however, when the people repented and He chose to spare them—much to the chagrin of that imperfect (yet still divinely called) prophet, Jonah.
Jonah, in fact, was "displeased ... exceedingly" and "very angry" (Jonah 4:1) about this change from God, perhaps because it made Jonah look bad. In spite of an "incorrect" prophecy and in spite of the obvious shortcomings of Jonah, he was a prophet of God and the Book of Jonah in the Bible is part of the Word of God. Yet if that sacred text had been lost, only to be restored by Joseph Smith, perhaps as part of the Book of Mormon, it would be assaulted as the most damning evidence against Joseph Smith. Just imagine how the critics would dismiss the Book of Jonah as being evil, contradictory, ludicrous, anti-Biblical, unscientific, and unchristian (of course, there are plenty already who reject it as it is, unable to believe major parts of the story).

Ezekiel

The prophet Ezekiel provides another example of how true prophets may err or give prophecies of uncertain accuracy. In Ezekiel chapters 26, 27, and 28, we read that Tyre (a fortified island city) would be conquered, destroyed, and plundered by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. The riches of Tyre would go to Babylon (Ezekiel 26:12). Nebuchadnezzar's army did lay siege to Tyre, and its inhabitants were afflicted, apparently so much that they shaved their heads bald, as prophesied in (Ezekiel 27:31). However, the 13-year Babylonian siege apparently was not quite as successful as Ezekiel had predicted, perhaps because the land-based tactics of Babylonian sieges were less effective against a fortified island city with significant maritime power. The result of the siege may have been a compromise or treaty rather than total destruction and plunder, for (Ezekiel 29:17-20) reports that the predicted plundering did not take place. Almost as if in compensation, the Lord now announces that He will give Egypt to the Babylonians, which is the theme of chapter 29. Here are verses (Ezekiel 29:17-20):
17 And it came to pass in the seven and twentieth year, in the first month, in the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:
19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.
20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labour wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD.

(emphasis added)

Yes, Tyre is no more, but its complete destruction apparently did not occur during the Babylonian siege, and certainly the Babylonian army did not get the riches of Tyre as has been prophesied. It is Ezekiel himself who reports this "prophetic failure."[7]
The purpose in raising this issue is not to question the wisdom of the Lord, nor the truthfulness of the Bible, but to point out that an overly critical attitude and a strict application of Deut. 18:22 may reject even true, Biblical prophets. If we try hard enough to find reasons to reject a prophet, we will surely succeed—but beware lest we judge unwisely and reject those whom God has sent and anointed, even though they be mortal and fallible.

Jeremiah

Another example to consider is the prophet Jeremiah—a great and inspired prophet—who prophesied that king Zedekiah would "die in peace" (Jeremiah 34:4-5). Critics could argue that this prophecy did not prove to be true, for Zedekiah saw his sons killed by the conquering Babylonians and was himself blinded and put in prison, where he died in captivity—not in peace (Jeremiah 52:10-11). Of course, the point is that he would not be killed by the sword, but die of natural causes—albeit in prison—yet to the critics, it may look like a case of a false prophecy. This case is certainly less clear-cut than the prophecy of Ezekiel discussed above, yet also serves to warn us against harsh judgments.

Nathan

Other examples include Nathan:

In 2 Samuel 7:5-17, we read that the prophet Nathan unequivocally prophesied to David that through his son Solomon the Davidic empire would be established "forever," that the children of Israel would dwell in the promised land "and move no more," and that the "children of wickedness" would no longer afflict them. These things are quite clearly stated. No conditions are attached to these promises, none whatsoever.[8]
Yet this prophecy clearly did not prove successful if it is interpreted literally. Clearly, human sin or choice will affect whether God will choose to bless or punish them—this is implicit in all such prophecies.

Samson

And the angel who spoke to Samson's mother:

In Judges 13:5, where it is recounted that an angel promised Samson's mother that Samson would "begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines." No matter how liberal or expansive one wants to be with the facts of Israelite history (as recorded in the Bible or elsewhere), there is no way it can reasonably be concluded that Samson fulfilled this prophecy.
Not only did Samson fail to even "begin" to free Israel from the Philistines, but (1) there were times when he consorted with Philistine women, (2) he married a Philistine, (3) he himself never even led any Israelite troops against the Philistines, and (4) the Philistines eventually humiliated him.

Moreover, and most importantly, Israel actually lost ground to the Philistines during Samson's tenure. Judges 13-16 illustrates Philistine encroachment into Hebrew territory. The Samson narrative documents the eastward expansion of the Philistines by mentioning the Philistine presence in Timnah and Lehi, both in the strategic valley of Sorek (Achtemeier 1985:787-791). This Philistine expansion worsened the land shortage that eventually forced the Danites to migrate northward.
Of course, the nonfulfillment of Judges 13:5 can be attributed to Samson's failure to live according to his Nazarite calling. In addition to his sexual liaisons, he married a Philistine, ate unclean food, drank wine, and allowed his hair to be cut. Therefore, it could be said that the angel's prophecy was nullified by Samson's behavior. However, the angel placed absolutely no conditions on his promise that Samson would begin to deliver Israel from the Philistines. He simply declared that Samson would do so.[9]
[\quote]
http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...Deuteronomy_18
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-13-2012, 08:28 AM
Big Dummy Big Dummy is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 67
Question Re: How would you respond to these "false" prophec

[quote]
The title of one fairly recent anti-Mormon book is , God's Word, Final, Infallible and Forever: Compelling Evidence for the Bible's Inspiration and Preservation (McElveen, 1985). Author Floyd McElveen argues that the Bible is "without error" (ibid., 7) and that a "prophet was considered false if his prophecies were not 100 percent accurate at all times.... One false prophecy is all it takes to reveal a false prophet" (ibid., 31).

The Bible never claims that it is inerrant. This belief is a fabrication by those who have closed the doors of revelation. If no more revelation is to be received then the Bible must be inerrant because the Bible and tradition would be the only source of authority.

Is the Bible inerrant? Infallible? 2 Chronicles 2:2 says that it took 153,600 men to build Solomon's Temple. 1 Kings 5:13 says that the labor force was only 30,000 men working in three shifts of 10,000 each. According to the Bible, the earth is flat (see Isaiah 11:12, Jeremiah 49:32, Revelation 7:1, Deuteronomy 33:17; Job 28:24, etc.). Moses claimed that the hare "cheweth the cud" (Lev. 11:6)-- they don't. How many angels were at Christ's tomb (see Matt. 28:2, Mark 16:5, Luke 24:4, and John 10:12)? Matthew wrote that the title on the cross above Jesus read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matt. 27:37), while Mark claimed that the title simply read: "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). Luke, however, recorded that the title read: "This is the King of the Jews" (Luke 23:38), and John claimed that the title read: "Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews" (John 19:19).

What about prophetic infallibility? Does one false prophetic statement reveal a false prophet? Is Moses a false prophet because the "everlasting" covenant of circumcision (Gen. 17:1-14) was done away with in New Testament times. The prophet Jeremiah was so upset about his failed prophecies that he called God a liar (Jer. 15:18). Jeremiah predicted that King Zedekiah would "die in peace: and with the burning of ...odours" (Jer. 34:5). Instead, however, Zedekiah's children were slaughtered, his eyes were put out, and he died in prison. Jonah was commanded twice to go cry repentance to the people of Nineveh. Jonah then prophesied that the city would be overthrown in forty days (Jonah 3:4). The people of Nineveh repented, however, and God spared them. Jonah was angry with God that his prophecy and not been fulfilled, and the Lord needed to rebuke Jonah for his anger.

The list of Bible errors & contradictions as well as incorrect prophetic biblical utterances can be multiplied, but I believe the above examples demonstrate that the Bible is not inerrant, nor infallible, and neither are God's prophets.

Michael R. Ash

[\quote]

http://www.mormonfortress.com/infallible.html

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/tvedt...and-prophecy-2
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-13-2012, 08:34 AM
crakjak's Avatar
crakjak crakjak is offline
crakjak


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
Re: How would you respond to these "false" prophec

[QUOTE=Big Dummy;1154042]
Quote:
The title of one fairly recent anti-Mormon book is , God's Word, Final, Infallible and Forever: Compelling Evidence for the Bible's Inspiration and Preservation (McElveen, 1985). Author Floyd McElveen argues that the Bible is "without error" (ibid., 7) and that a "prophet was considered false if his prophecies were not 100 percent accurate at all times.... One false prophecy is all it takes to reveal a false prophet" (ibid., 31).

The Bible never claims that it is inerrant. This belief is a fabrication by those who have closed the doors of revelation. If no more revelation is to be received then the Bible must be inerrant because the Bible and tradition would be the only source of authority.

Is the Bible inerrant? Infallible? 2 Chronicles 2:2 says that it took 153,600 men to build Solomon's Temple. 1 Kings 5:13 says that the labor force was only 30,000 men working in three shifts of 10,000 each. According to the Bible, the earth is flat (see Isaiah 11:12, Jeremiah 49:32, Revelation 7:1, Deuteronomy 33:17; Job 28:24, etc.). Moses claimed that the hare "cheweth the cud" (Lev. 11:6)-- they don't. How many angels were at Christ's tomb (see Matt. 28:2, Mark 16:5, Luke 24:4, and John 10:12)? Matthew wrote that the title on the cross above Jesus read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews" (Matt. 27:37), while Mark claimed that the title simply read: "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26). Luke, however, recorded that the title read: "This is the King of the Jews" (Luke 23:38), and John claimed that the title read: "Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews" (John 19:19).

What about prophetic infallibility? Does one false prophetic statement reveal a false prophet? Is Moses a false prophet because the "everlasting" covenant of circumcision (Gen. 17:1-14) was done away with in New Testament times. The prophet Jeremiah was so upset about his failed prophecies that he called God a liar (Jer. 15:18). Jeremiah predicted that King Zedekiah would "die in peace: and with the burning of ...odours" (Jer. 34:5). Instead, however, Zedekiah's children were slaughtered, his eyes were put out, and he died in prison. Jonah was commanded twice to go cry repentance to the people of Nineveh. Jonah then prophesied that the city would be overthrown in forty days (Jonah 3:4). The people of Nineveh repented, however, and God spared them. Jonah was angry with God that his prophecy and not been fulfilled, and the Lord needed to rebuke Jonah for his anger.

The list of Bible errors & contradictions as well as incorrect prophetic biblical utterances can be multiplied, but I believe the above examples demonstrate that the Bible is not inerrant, nor infallible, and neither are God's prophets.

Michael R. Ash

[\quote]

http://www.mormonfortress.com/infallible.html

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/tvedt...and-prophecy-2
Maybe these "examples" prove that man's actions effect the eventual outcome.
__________________
For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)


www.tentmaker.org
www.coventryreserve.org
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-13-2012, 10:49 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
Jesus is the only Lord God


 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,535
Re: How would you respond to these "false" prophec

There are CONDITIONAL and UNCONDITIONAL prophecies...

1. Consider the story of Hezekiah: Isaiah said he would die, yet Hezekiah sought the Lord and God had mercy on him. God extended his life for 15 more years.

2. Consider the story of Ahab: Elijah prophesied against Ahab. When Ahab repented, the Lord told Elijah that he would not bring that prophecy to pass in Ahab's day, but in his son's days.

3. In the NT, we see when Paul was being shipped to Rome. They got into a ship wreck. Paul said an angel appeared to him saying "none of the lives on the ship would be lost." When some of the men wanted to escape from the ship, Paul said they would lose their if they left the ship. The men stayed on the ship and did not lose their lives.

There are a good amount of CONDITIONAL prophecies in the bible. The context of the prophecy HELPS us determine if it's conditional or not.

Here's an UNCONDITIONAL prophecy:
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The result of this prophecy is not based on man's actions.
__________________
...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:04 PM
Esther's Avatar
Esther Esther is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 12,362
Re: How would you respond to these "false" prophec

"The list of Bible errors & contradictions as well as incorrect prophetic biblical utterances can be multiplied, but I believe the above examples demonstrate that the Bible is not inerrant, nor infallible, and neither are God's prophets." Big Dummy

Big Dummy what is your intent here to tear down the Bible?
__________________
Happy moments, PRAISE GOD.
Difficult moments, SEEK GOD.
Quiet moments, WORSHIP GOD.
Painful moments, TRUST GOD.
Every moment, THANK GOD.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:11 PM
Jay's Avatar
Jay Jay is offline
Apostolic Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,417
Re: How would you respond to these "false" prophec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esther View Post
"The list of Bible errors & contradictions as well as incorrect prophetic biblical utterances can be multiplied, but I believe the above examples demonstrate that the Bible is not inerrant, nor infallible, and neither are God's prophets." Big Dummy

Big Dummy what is your intent here to tear down the Bible?

He has come in and apparently tried to quote some authority, but he never told us who nor what the purpose of this was.
__________________
I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.

Visit me at www.jonathandtalbot.blogspot.com.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-13-2012, 01:19 PM
Esther's Avatar
Esther Esther is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 12,362
Re: How would you respond to these "false" prophec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
He has come in and apparently tried to quote some authority, but he never told us who nor what the purpose of this was.

I get concerned when a fairly new poster comes on trying to say the Bible is not reliable and then starts another thread questioning speaking in tongues.

The Bible is the foundation for all Christianity.
__________________
Happy moments, PRAISE GOD.
Difficult moments, SEEK GOD.
Quiet moments, WORSHIP GOD.
Painful moments, TRUST GOD.
Every moment, THANK GOD.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-13-2012, 02:09 PM
Jay's Avatar
Jay Jay is offline
Apostolic Pentecostal


 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,417
Re: How would you respond to these "false" prophec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esther View Post
I get concerned when a fairly new poster comes on trying to say the Bible is not reliable and then starts another thread questioning speaking in tongues.

The Bible is the foundation for all Christianity.


This is true. I have a feeling that we might have ourselves another troll. Or perhaps it is the same troll but using another name and method. I to get suspicious of posters who only post a few things questioning doctrine or making vague grandiose comments. Especially when they do not reply to anything that anyone else says.
__________________
I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.

Visit me at www.jonathandtalbot.blogspot.com.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WANTED: "Hicky", "Blue Collared" Wannabes Jermyn Davidson Political Talk 16 09-21-2015 07:22 AM
**** Are the NCO and AWCF "raiding" the UPCI or providing a "safety net"? **** SDG The D.A.'s Office 373 02-06-2012 12:01 AM
While we move "ahead" Europe moves "backwards" Praxeas Political Talk 11 05-02-2010 02:36 PM
"Kill Him", "Treason", "Off With His Head!" Jermyn Davidson Political Talk 114 10-17-2008 10:17 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by mfblume

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.