Oh WAKE UP people!!

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Spiirt of Korah? Again, apples and oranges. We removed King George as our leader? Was that the "spirit of Korah"? Is it the "spirit of Korah" then to remove people from office with Constitution means? Why vote them out? After all, God put them there, right? Or is it logical to conclude that God does not hand pick every single leader and that people are justified at times for overthrowing oppressors?

What about ISIS? Is God ordaining them to conquer and kill? You seem to be implying that every strong arm thug that can slaughter his way into power is ordained by God and that resisting them in any way is akin to the "spirit of Korah". Was it wrong then for people to flee the iron curtain to freedom? Was their fleeing an act of rebellion against the authority God set over them?

Who is the "ruler" in this country? We have "separation of powers". Obama is not the ruler here. He simply leads one branch of government. But you seem to think that if he sets himself up as dictator we are in rebellion against God if we resist. Respectfully, there are just too many holes in this line of reasoning for it to make sense.

[Aquila]

We, as Christians, should be concerned about liberty and justice for all human beings, and especially for every American. Liberty is holy, even when men use said liberty to sin (and they will). If something isn't a threat to another's life, liberty, or property... I see no reason why the government should get involved.

The Gospel is best presented and more widely accepted in a free society.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We, as Christians, should be concerned about liberty and justice for all human beings, and especially for every American. Liberty is holy, even when men use said liberty to sin (and they will). If something isn't a threat to another's life, liberty, or property... I see no reason why the government should get involved.

The Gospel is best presented and more widely accepted in a free society.

And because "LIBERTY" is Holy, we should fight for it if need be.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by n david

Wait, are you trying to equate the "spirit of Korah" to civil disobedience or revolt? The spirit of Korah has nothing to do with it and isn't a good analogy. The reason Korah, Dathan and Abiram were swallowed up by the earth was because they were rebelling against God's order for choosing the Priests and High Priests. It was a spiritual issue, not a civil issue.

You make a good point.

Rebelling against God's order in secular government is rebellion none-the-less. Wanting to oust those in authority of whom God has given authority is unwise.

Pat Robertson stated when Clinton was in office "we need to take the white house back" paraphrasing. Was Pat not pleased with the authority given to Clinton?

To me it is clear that God sets up rulers and sets them down. It is not the church's affair imo. We are to pray for them not against them.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Rudy

You make a good point.

Rebelling against God's order in secular government is rebellion none-the-less. Wanting to oust those in authority of whom God has given authority is unwise.

Pat Robertson stated when Clinton was in office "we need to take the white house back" paraphrasing. Was Pat not pleased with the authority given to Clinton?

To me it is clear that God sets up rulers and sets them down. It is not the church's affair imo. We are to pray for them not against them.

David disagrees.

Ps 109:8 Let his days be few; Let another take his office.

In fact, David goes beyond just wanting this ruler replaced...

9-15 Let his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the creditor seize all that he has, and let strangers plunder the product of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off; in a following generation let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and do not let the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the LORD continually, that He may cut off their memory from the earth;

Incredible words coming from the man after God's own heart.

You cannot equate spiritual rebellion with secular rebellion. The two are not the same. Yes, God both brings up and sets down rulers as He sees fit; however, just because He does this does not mean He approves of them.

There is a time and place for rebellion against secular authority. Just ask Daniel, who rebelled against a King, as did the three Hebrew children. Ask Samson, who rebelled against his oppressors.

To say any secular rebellion is against God is not really examining the issue.

So if obama declares prayer to be illegal, will you cease to pray? If the government declares the Gospel is hate speech, will you cease to preach the Gospel?

Think about it.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by n david

David disagrees.

Ps 109:8 Let his days be few; Let another take his office.

In fact, David goes beyond just wanting this ruler replaced...

9-15 Let his children be fatherless and his wife a widow. Let his children wander about and beg; and let them seek sustenance far from their ruined homes. Let the creditor seize all that he has, and let strangers plunder the product of his labor. Let there be none to extend lovingkindness to him, nor any to be gracious to his fatherless children. Let his posterity be cut off; in a following generation let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and do not let the sin of his mother be blotted out. Let them be before the LORD continually, that He may cut off their memory from the earth;

Incredible words coming from the man after God's own heart.

You cannot equate spiritual rebellion with secular rebellion. The two are not the same. Yes, God both brings up and sets down rulers as He sees fit; however, just because He does this does not mean He approves of them.

There is a time and place for rebellion against secular authority. Just ask Daniel, who rebelled against a King, as did the three Hebrew children. Ask Samson, who rebelled against his oppressors.

To say any secular rebellion is against God is not really examining the issue.

So if obama declares prayer to be illegal, will you cease to pray? If the government declares the Gospel is hate speech, will you cease to preach the Gospel?

Think about it.

You're talking about those who choose to obey God rather than man. That is the difference. If we are commanded to Disobey God by secular authority we choose God. Agreed.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Rudy

You're talking about those who choose to obey God rather than man. That is the difference. If we are commanded to Disobey God by secular authority we choose God. Agreed.

But from what you said previously, doing so is rebellion and wrong. After all, God put them over us and gave them authority over us.

See, there truly is a time and place for even the righteous to rebel against authority. Even though that authority was given and put in place by God.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

And because "LIBERTY" is Holy, we should fight for it if need be.

One should follow the Spirit in such matters. War isn't for everyone. I served and I'm not ashamed. However, those who are deeply convicted not to should be honored and respected equally. God alone knows what He has called them to do and be for Him. To take another's life is no light matter.

In some wars Christian meets Christian on the battlefield. Should the free soldier freely kill the soldier fighting under coercion through draft (threat of prison, death, or reprisals against family)? Would God honor my killing a man who is only fighting me on the battlefield because his government will wipe out his family if he doesn't?

What if a Christian meets the enemy on the battlefield and it is an 18 to 20 year old male who has been systematically brainwashed by diabolical leaders hell bent on causing conflict throughout a region for their own political and economic gain. This young man is a victim of his society. Brainwashed. His mother weeps in the shadows, knowing her son is a pawn. But should she say something against those using her son as a pawn, she stands a chance of being shot dead. If I blow this kid away... will God honor that?

What if two Christians meet on the battlefield... each firmly believing in what their governments have told them. However, one or both have been misinformed. Will God honor my killing a fellow Christian over a lie?

A Christian nation is at war and conducts bombing raids, or drops an atom bomb. High numbers of civilians (men, women, and children) are killed. Will God honor that slaughter?

When it comes to war, we in the West often instantly think of serving the war effort by taking up arms and killing at the behest of our earthly government. However, the enlightened soul will realize that there is more than one way to further the cause of freedom. There is more than one way to serve one's nation in time of war. Some are in the theater of combat and are equally as dangerous as being infantry. Others are on the home front.

As this world becomes increasingly wicked and as we come closer and closer to the Last Days when the Beast shall indeed arise from the abyss and subjugate all nations to his authority... things will not be as they seem. The soldier who enlists today may find himself furthering the Antichrist's agenda tomorrow. It will not come with a stamp that says, "Orders from the Antichrist". No, it will seem like a series of logical and necessary military actions. But they will set the stage for this Abomination's reign. I can only caution the Christian who glorifies and romanticizes war.

It can be argued that we do more to preserve liberty in our nation by preaching the Gospel than by shooting some frightened, coerced, and underpaid enemy soldier. Not to mention, the real villains rarely set foot on the battlefield. They often coerce the population or brainwash disenchanted youth to do the fighting for them.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Rudy

You make a good point.

Rebelling against God's order in secular government is rebellion none-the-less. Wanting to oust those in authority of whom God has given authority is unwise.

Pat Robertson stated when Clinton was in office "we need to take the white house back" paraphrasing. Was Pat not pleased with the authority given to Clinton?

To me it is clear that God sets up rulers and sets them down. It is not the church's affair imo. We are to pray for them not against them.

We can pray against evil. We do well to teach and further the cause of justice and liberty. And we should indeed pray for our leaders. Just remember, prayer can take many forms.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

But from what you said previously, doing so is rebellion and wrong. After all, God put them over us and gave them authority over us.

See, there truly is a time and place for even the righteous to rebel against authority. Even though that authority was given and put in place by God.

Everyone has free will. God may elevate a man capable of much good or much evil. Time reveals the path the leader has chosen. And depending upon the choice of the leader... revolution or war may result.

But as Christians... we do well to realize that these things are happening as relating to this world. We do well to be wise and not too deeply involve ourselves. All too often we've come to realize that ulterior motives abound. Our role should be to preserve as much life on both sides as possible and to bring the war to an end as soon as possible. For example, a Combat Medic not only aids his unit... but he is to also aid wounded enemy. Many private agencies also specialize in serving the displaced and wounded during times of war.