"With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Many preaching and songs have been preached and sung referring to the "Holy Ghost and fire" or "fire come down", however, ...

Let's read these verses and within the context. What you do think "fire" in "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" refers to?

[Mat 3:9-12 KJV] 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: 12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[Luk 3:16-18 KJV] 16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. 18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

Correct hermeneutics requires a proper understanding of the language first. So, the Greek text preaches the meaning. If the underlying text is unequivocal in meaning and cannot be translated or interpreted any other way but one, then any other conjecture on the matter is immaterial.

The Greek text for Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16 are identical to each other:

See:https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/3-11.htm
See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/3-16.htm

The phrase in question, as it pertains to the original question regarding "fire", is as follows:

αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί

autos hymas baptisei en pneumati hagio kai pyri

The verb βαπτίσει (baptisei) is in the future indicative active, third person singular. The nouns Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ (pneumati hagio) and πυρί (pyri) are all in the dative neuter singular.

The subject of the phrase is Jesus (i.e. "He" or αὐτὸς (autos).

The direct object of the verb, meaning the object which receives the action of the verb, is ὑμᾶς (hymas), that is, "you", hence the accusative case.

That means John was telling his audience that they would be the recipients of the direct action of being baptized by Jesus. As indirect objects (i.e. the dative case), the Holy Spirit and the fire are the recipients of the object being given to them in baptism (i.e. the person being so immersed), as the action of the verb is completed.

What does this all mean?

It means that there are not two separate baptisms here, one of Spirit, for the believer, as an act of saving grace, and one of fire, for the unbeliever, as an act of damning judgment.

It is the believer, the one who accepted John's baptism, and would then eventually follow Jesus as Christ and Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world, who would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

It might then best be argued that καὶ (kai) here ought to be understood as something like "even", or "that is to say", or possibly "as well as" so the phrase could read:

1.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, even with fire".

2.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, that is to say, with fire".

3.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, as well as, with fire".

In all three instances, the meaning is equivalent. Either the Spirit is the fire, and vice versa (and clearly then, a metaphor), or the fire, whatever it might be, attends and accompanies the Spirit, and vice versa.

But in no case should it be thought that they ought to be separated into two camps, that one camp receives the Spirit, and another camp receives the fire.