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  #1381  
Old 08-25-2018, 10:22 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by JamesGlen View Post
Thank u for the advice.
So u feel I should let the “thief accusation” go, and the Malachi curse go as well, without addressing anything?
Because I will likely not get anywhere, anyway? Maybe I should...the story of any success seems less than bleak.
Unless someone was directly talking to you and calling you a thief? In that case I'd have a sit down with the individual and two open Bibles and a concordance and git er done. Otherwise, it's all a cost-benefit analysis. Is the cost of attending and hearing the occasional tithing sermon worth the price for other benefits obtained by membership and attendance? Yes? Then stay and let it glide like water off the duck's back. No? then move along somewhere else where you can be a better blessing to your brethren and don't have to put up with silly shenanigans.


Quote:
Regarding the Jewish christians, if the purpose of the levitical priesthood revolved around the purpose of sin atonement, and yet they learned/ understood that was the purpose finalized in the cross, why would they continue giving a tithe to Levites. Wouldn’t they be like, you’re temple sacrifice is now in vain fellas.
I would say:

1. The tithe and support of Levites was about more than atonement. The Levites were responsible for teaching the Word of God and often acted as judges. Tithes went to strangers, orphans, and widows, as well as Levites. Like I said, it was a part of Judean society itself, and concerned more than just sacrifices and offerings at the Temple.

2. As long as the Temple stood, the system was in operation. Knowing that it was "waxing old and ready to vanish away" didn't mean stick a fork in it and call it done, necessarily. They would likely have waited for God to fulfill the words of Jesus and destroy the city and Temple and disperse the Judeans out of the land before "refusing to tithe".

3. It may be that many did in fact abandon tithing and other aspects of supporting the Temple, priesthood, and Levites. Paul and the apostles and Stephen et al were often accused of preaching exactly that. Although, they denied they actually taught Judean Christians to abandon anything... But still, knowing human nature, I suspect it is very likely at least some did in fact do just that. After all, Essene Jews and other sects seemed to have withdrawn a lot of support for the Temple establishment anyway, for their own reasons.
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  #1382  
Old 08-27-2018, 08:14 PM
JamesGlen JamesGlen is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1546279]
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Originally Posted by JamesGlen View Post
I’m not intentionally being hard headed, ftr, but I am trying to learn this. I’ll have to find some online schooling in the way of the ot temple, sacrifices, offerings etc.




You have the essence of what my interpretation is of this passage. The OT priests were eating portions of the offerings and sacrifices. This is what Paul is talking about. The tithes were not put on the altar, so he could not be referring to the tithes.

Let's consider verse 4.

[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?

This answers your question. It was about food and drink. What it was not about, was money. If the tithe were food today, as it was in the Bible, do you think we would have the problems with pastors attempting to make tithing a salvation issue? Would they be twisting scripture and teaching false doctrine about the tithe, as they do now? The love of money, is the root of all evil. It will cause people to twist scripture even. Shocking but true.

Let's address another verse from the same chapter . . .

[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

In this verse, we have the mention of carnal things. Preachers will say that money is carnal in reference to this verse. Money is NOT carnal. Carnal means "of the body". Someone that is accused of having carnal knowledge of another person, probably does not refer to the possibility that they gave them money (with the possible exception of prostitution, which is a statement in itself). Carnal has to do with needs of the body (food, water, shelter, sexual, etc.). If you were to hear about a school shooting, and the news mentions carnage, do you assume that there are hundred dollar bills covering the ground? Or might you believe that there are body parts and blood everywhere?



In answer to this question, you should focus on whether the tithe is the subject here. There is nothing wrong with giving offerings of food, clothing or money. It is when the subject turns to tithing that scripture begins to be twisted, and lies begin to be told.

In general, this chapter is perhaps the best evidence that Paul did NOT believe in tithing. If he had he would have just said "pay your tithes". Instead he talks about the law forbidding the muzzling of the ox? Remember, Paul was a Pharisee before he was saved. He was educated about the law. If he was talking about tithes, why would he bring up the ox? The ox was not eligible to receive tithes. This lesson is about treating the ox well. If you treat the ox right, it should go without saying that the preacher should be taken care of.

Elsewhere, Paul is very clear that the preacher, or the elders, should work for a living. He set a clear example for the church that this is how it should be.



By receiving whatever kind of offerings. Always remember that tithes were never money, and money was never tithes . . . in the entire Bible. No exceptions.




The tithe was connected to the land that God gave the children of Israel. When there is no land, there is no tithe. The tithe was ordered by God to be of the increase of the seed of the land, the increase of the herds, and the increase of the flocks, from the land that He gave them. People that did not raise crops, flocks or herds did not have anything eligible to tithe from, even in the Old Testament.


Being a preacher was never a qualification to receive tithes in the Bible, either in the Old Testament, or the New. Being a man of God did not qualify you to receive tithes . . . ever. There are prophets and preachers in the Old Testament that were not Levites, so they were not eligible for receiving tithes. The qualification for receiving a portion of the Levitical tithe was that you were a Levite. Elisha was a prophet, but he wasn't a Levite, therefore he could not receive a tithe.



Send it to me.

1 Cor 9:14’s Live from the gospel, or, earn a living from the gospel, doesn’t just sound like food or drink, like a chunk of shoulder roast. Maybe I’m 2018 mind warped, but it sounds like more than that, from the “live from”...

Seems to me like Commentaries kind of go beyond just food and drink, but taken care of in whatever manner or areas needed.

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/9-14.htm



Isnt the first part of vs 13 speaking of the tithe food that the Levites ate, while serving/assisting the “higher” priests in the temple?

:13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple?(Isn’t that the tithe?) And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings.

Last edited by JamesGlen; 08-27-2018 at 08:43 PM.
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  #1383  
Old 08-28-2018, 09:25 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

[QUOTE=JamesGlen;1547017]
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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post


1 Cor 9:14’s Live from the gospel, or, earn a living from the gospel, doesn’t just sound like food or drink, like a chunk of shoulder roast. Maybe I’m 2018 mind warped, but it sounds like more than that, from the “live from”...

Seems to me like Commentaries kind of go beyond just food and drink, but taken care of in whatever manner or areas needed.

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/9-14.htm



Isnt the first part of vs 13 speaking of the tithe food that the Levites ate, while serving/assisting the “higher” priests in the temple?

:13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple?(Isn’t that the tithe?) And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings.

First of all, let me clear up something. It seems to me that you believe that I believe, that preachers are to preach for free. I don't believe that, and I am fairly confident that you will not find anywhere that I said that. I AM entirely confident that you will be able to find others who have accused me of that though. In fact 1ofthechosen has made that accusation in the last few days. Saying it doesn't make it true however.

Just to clarify, the question at hand is not whether or not somebody who preaches the gospel, should live from the gospel. It is instead, whether or not the early church taught or practiced tithing. I am confident that they did not, based on both NT scripture, and secular, historical accounts of the early church. All that I have found consistently indicates that the early church did not receive tithes. To be clear, I do believe, based on passages in Hebrews and in Acts that the church at Jerusalem did tithe, however they were tithing, not as Christians and not to the church. Instead they were tithing as Jews (the church at Jerusalem was composed mostly of Jews) and they were tithing to the Levites. Hence the church or the ministry of the church (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) were not beneficiaries of the tithing system.

This is what I believe and I am confident I can support it consistently with scripture as far as the Bible is concerned, and afterwards with secular history. So don't be afraid to ask questions. Just don't rush me on my answers, sometimes life requires my attention.
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  #1384  
Old 08-28-2018, 10:51 AM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

[QUOTE=JamesGlen;1547017]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post


1 Cor 9:14’s Live from the gospel, or, earn a living from the gospel, doesn’t just sound like food or drink, like a chunk of shoulder roast. Maybe I’m 2018 mind warped, but it sounds like more than that, from the “live from”...

Seems to me like Commentaries kind of go beyond just food and drink, but taken care of in whatever manner or areas needed.

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/9-14.htm

I will post my comments in red. I will address your specific questions and then maybe I will give a commentary on the entire ninth chapter of 1Corinthians.

I think it is very unlikely that this is referring to tithes. Generally tithes did not go to the temple. SOME tithes did, but only ten percent of the Levitical tithe went to the priests, and none of the festival tithe went to the temple, Also none of the poor tithe went to the temple, unless the Levites shared their portion of the poor tithe with the priests at the temple. The law does not specify this to the best of my knowledge, and there is no mention of any portion of the the poor tithe going to the temple, unless I have overlooked it or misunderstood something.

As far as your mention of commentary goes, the link you posted has many different versions of the Bible (28) as well as a few commentaries (5) and some cross reference scriptures (18). It has to be significant that from ALL of these sources, none of them mention tithes, either specifically or by implication. If you do the math that is fifty one references and zero mentions of tithe.



Isnt the first part of vs 13 speaking of the tithe food that the Levites ate, while serving/assisting the “higher” priests in the temple?

:13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple?(Isn’t that the tithe?) And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings.
Allow me to answer this in a general manner for now. I will plan to get more specific later when I do my commentary on the chapter as a whole, or at least as much of it as is commonly misconstrued to be about tithing. Taking it in bits and pieces makes for a disjointed study IMO, so I'll give it my best effort later to cover the bases on what I believe that this chapter is communicating to us. It is important to remember that it is a letter, and it should be studied as a letter and not as a verse here and there.

Having said that, your question is whether the first part of verse thirteen is referring to tithes. The word that you believe is referring to tithes seems to be offerings. This word is a clue as to what Paul is talking about.

Let's talk about Paul. Paul, unlike most of the other apostles was very well educated. He was specifically educated in the study of the Mosaic Law. He studied at the feet of Gamaliel. Gamaliel was a highly respected rabbi during the time of the early church, and as his student Paul was perhaps the equivalent of an ivy league school graduate in secular education today. So Paul was very well educated, and Paul was anything but timid. So we cannot assume that Paul did not well understand the Mosaic law regarding tithing. To do so would be a grave error.

So if Paul knew the law about tithing, and he was not bashful in his speech, we should ask the question;

Why did Paul NOT simply appeal to the law of tithing? Instead he appeals to the law that you should not muzzle the ox! It is incomprehensible that Paul would quote a law about the ox, that is by comparison unheard of, and that he really meant tithes? This is surely NOT the case.

It would have made this so simple wouldn't it? Paul could have said, what many preachers say that he meant, that the tithe for the OT that supports the Levites has been replaced with a tithe that is money and that will go to the pastors, or the church, or the whole five-fold ministry. But Paul didn't say that. And I believe it is simply because he didn't mean that.

The offerings that are mentioned in verse thirteen are the offerings that are mentioned throughout the OT, IMO. There were offerings of firstfruits (firstfuits were not tithes, contrary to the opinion of many preachers) that went directly to the priests, sin offerings, drink offerings (remember the reference Paul made to eat and drink in verse 4?) and other offerings. Offerings were sometimes money as well, when tithes never were. Even today we typically separate the terms tithes and offerings, as evidenced by the message that your own pastor gave on tithes and offerings. He said (IIRC) that the tithes go to the pastor and the offerings go for the maintenance and expenses of the church. I don't believe that Paul said offerings and really meant tithes.

So your question is a good one, but the answer is no. It makes no sense that Paul is talking about tithes in this passage, and incidentally none of the fifty one references that you provided a link to in your post, indicate that he did!
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  #1385  
Old 08-06-2019, 11:22 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Tithing is a great teaching. If tithing has no importance to the NT church than none of the old testament does (to be consistant). Although, people are sometimes misled to believe that mosaic laws concerning tithing is still in effect. I think that every Christian should tithe, but it is not because of the Malachi 3:9 curse. Instead it is the right thing to do and it is part of good stewardship.

Tithing has been used in many religious systems through the years to honor even false gods. Abraham and Jacob both paid tithes at least on occasion to honor God even though there was no biblical precedence to instruct them to do so. I have read commentary that suggested that Abraham likely learned the practice of tithing from the false religions of his day.

Later God would command the children of Israel to pay tithes of all their increase in the promised land. Although we may not be under the law, we are still required to be found faithfull. It is less about money and more about the heart. God blesses the people of our country each week or month with income to sustain us in food, clothing, and shelter. Common sense tells me that just like I give thanks before I eat, I should also recognize God's provision for my finances. I see in the old testament a precedent given to honor God with a precent of my increase. I understand that the command to do so was not made direct to me, but I desire to glean from the teaching anyway.

If giving to God any amount is ever begrudgingly, I don't think the Lord really accepts it anyway. When we get the revelation that God is our provider and he is the reason everything is possible, it should make us eager to show Him recognition. The problem with tithing is that it doesn't even begin to be enough for all that he has done. Is tithing a heaven or hell? No, but it could be a tell tell sign of the heart of the person. When God one day audits us, will He find that we have been faithfull stewards with all of the resources that he has given us.
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  #1386  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:20 AM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Tithing is a great teaching. If tithing has no importance to the NT church than none of the old testament does (to be consistant). Although, people are sometimes misled to believe that mosaic laws concerning tithing is still in effect. I think that every Christian should tithe, but it is not because of the Malachi 3:9 curse. Instead it is the right thing to do and it is part of good stewardship.

Tithing has been used in many religious systems through the years to honor even false gods. Abraham and Jacob both paid tithes at least on occasion to honor God even though there was no biblical precedence to instruct them to do so. I have read commentary that suggested that Abraham likely learned the practice of tithing from the false religions of his day.

Later God would command the children of Israel to pay tithes of all their increase in the promised land. Although we may not be under the law, we are still required to be found faithfull. It is less about money and more about the heart. God blesses the people of our country each week or month with income to sustain us in food, clothing, and shelter. Common sense tells me that just like I give thanks before I eat, I should also recognize God's provision for my finances. I see in the old testament a precedent given to honor God with a precent of my increase. I understand that the command to do so was not made direct to me, but I desire to glean from the teaching anyway.

If giving to God any amount is ever begrudgingly, I don't think the Lord really accepts it anyway. When we get the revelation that God is our provider and he is the reason everything is possible, it should make us eager to show Him recognition. The problem with tithing is that it doesn't even begin to be enough for all that he has done. Is tithing a heaven or hell? No, but it could be a tell tell sign of the heart of the person. When God one day audits us, will He find that we have been faithfull stewards with all of the resources that he has given us.
Brother, you should read the whole thread.
All your arguments are just wrong. For instance, post one single record, only one, of labor, fishermen, or mining workers paying tithing under the law. Or one single record of the Israelites in the wilderness paying tithes (wasn’t universal?), or one single record of the early church in the Bible or outside the Bible (early writings) paying tithes of their salaries.
Instead I can show you tons of verses in the NT about giving and sharing your wealth with the weak and the ministry among us, and all voluntary and with a cheerful heart. If the Bible doesn’t teach it, why do you want to burden the saints with it? Pastors pressure the saints with the “give 10% of the gross, even if you can’t, by faith”, but instead they should embrace the truth whatever consequences it may be. Maybe they are the ones that because of the lack of faith don’t want to listen to the truth.
Let’s not start this discussion again .
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  #1387  
Old 08-07-2019, 03:59 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Let’s not start this discussion again .
Aww come on. You’re such a killjoy!
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  #1388  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:46 PM
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good samaritan good samaritan is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Brother, you should read the whole thread.
The whole Thread????? I don't have time to read over a thousand posts.

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All your arguments are just wrong. For instance, post one single record, only one, of labor, fishermen, or mining workers paying tithing under the law. Or one single record of the Israelites in the wilderness paying tithes (wasn’t universal?), or one single record of the early church in the Bible or outside the Bible (early writings) paying tithes of their salaries.
I'm sorry I can't see where Moses ever gave a percentage of his salary. lol. I never said we are under mosaic law to tithe and we are cursed if we do not. I said that Christians should tithe. Old Testament Jews upkept the tabernacle and the priesthood by tithing and it is a good example for us in mantaining our churches and the ministries that God has ordained. People are becoming more against any church orthodoxy. There is a trend of renegade saints that can't find any church's holy enough for them to be committed. I have been taught from scripture that we need one another "shall the hand say to the foot I have no need of thee etc......"

Quote:
Instead I can show you tons of verses in the NT about giving and sharing your wealth with the weak and the ministry among us, and all voluntary and with a cheerful heart.
Yes I agree, but giving has to be intentional. I am for Spirit led giving 100%, but I find that most people who don't make commitments within themselves to God never follow through. If you want to sell all like the early church saints and give to the poor go right on ahead. I find for most people that is more talk than action. I am not speaking to you personally, you may be a genuine person who generously help all those in need around you, but most aren't.

Our church has spent much out of its budget feeding bus kids who come to church hungry because of parents that don't care, and that is made possible because of committed givers. It is not people that just give when they feel the Spirit leading them to give. Electric bills, shelter from the rain, sunday school materials, ministry, bus ministries, etc...., cannot operate without budgets and budgets cannot be forecasted if noone has a commitment in giving.

Quote:
If the Bible doesn’t teach it, why do you want to burden the saints with it? Pastors pressure the saints with the “give 10% of the gross, even if you can’t, by faith”, but instead they should embrace the truth whatever consequences it may be. Maybe they are the ones that because of the lack of faith don’t want to listen to the truth.
Let’s not start this discussion again
The Bible does teach tithing, it just doesn't mandate it for the NT Church. I don't pretend that it does. I simply explain the effectiveness of how it works and why would you not want to do something that works. If someone is in a predicament where it is there rent or utilities getting paid or their tithes, I would never shun them or try to make them feel like they have sinned. I have had to make those choices before myself. That is where the church should try to help back.

If ten percent is viewed as heavy burden then don't do it. Our church would still make you feel welcome. Tithing has created resources for many ministries and I am sorry if you feel like it is so sinfull. I understand that it may have beem missrepresented by some who preach, but most are probably genuine with their understanding. Tithing has been pattern of giving that has been proven to work for thousands of years. If anyone disagrees with it I tell them they don't have to limit themselves to it. I don't think it is a cap on our giving, but it is a good place to start.


PS why not start this discussion again? I am not trying to irritate you. .
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  #1389  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:00 PM
JamesGlen JamesGlen is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
A few questions:

We, the ecclesia:
Who all scripturally allowed to receive tithe?
Who all can tithe be given to by the Christian tither?
Can giving straight to the poor or needy instead of a local assembly offering plate be acceptable as tithe?
Can buying someone groceries be a normal replacement of tithing money to a local assembly?
Are local church buildings REALLY the New Testament replacement for storehouses in the OT?
Jesus said if you’ve done it into the least of these....can that count as tithe?
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  #1390  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:35 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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I see your point. You think of it as a recommended amount, for practical reasons, to be able to pay the bills.

There is nothing wrong with that system if it is taught that way and the church agrees with it.

Teaching it as a commandment from the Lord, to the point of saying that if you don't tithe you are sinning and going to hell (as I have heard it from the pulpit before), is not a correct interpretation of the Bible.

I believe in systematic offerings as well, especially if the church wants to have a building, why not! As long as we agree and setup something fair, and people are not prevented from serving because they can't afford to give 10%

But the reality is that that's not what happens. Tithing is always taught with pressure, and with punishment: if you don't tithe, you can't serve in certain roles in the assembly, etc...
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