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  #21  
Old 07-10-2020, 10:35 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Now look at this quote from the Ellicott’s commentary.



Here they make the seventh kingdom, the kingdom of the man of sin itself, probably right before it rises.
I think Ellicot has confused the seventh with the eighth power.
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  #22  
Old 07-10-2020, 10:46 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
I found some interesting information. The Ottoman Empire was basically the last Caliphate. So the actual "Empire" started his beginning with the Mohammed Caliphate and conquered the Israel territory around 630-640.

So we can say that the Caliphate Empire started around 600 and fell in 1920. The fall became a reality by the occupation of Constantinople in 1918 by the French, British and Italian forces.

It is interesting that the Roman Empire divided in two: Western and Eastern, and since then resisted the different Caliphate invasions over the centuries, to finally defeat it in 1920. The Western side ended up separated in individual nations, but the Eastern part stayed united for a long time as what we call today the Byzantine Empire.

Something also that caught my attention today is how all those beasts represent human systems. Some are worse than others, but they are all beasts. Another interesting thing is that all the beasts that we can identify with certain systems of the past, are empires that at some point dominated the land of Abraham.
The problem is the Ottoman Empire was a TURKISH empire, whereas the original Islamic Caliphate was an ARABIC power. Biblically, nations are ethnicities, so the Arab power and the Turkish power should be two distinct entities. Again, I believe the Mohammedan movement(s) are mentioned in Revelation, just not in this particular scene.

Jerusalem was liberated under General Allenby in 1917.

Wahabbi Islam (Arabic Sunni sect) was essentially created by British mitary leader Sir Laurence (Laurence of Arabia) as an insurgent "terrorist" force to harass the Ottoman forces in the Arabian/Levantine areas. This is where the British control of Saudi Arabia comes into play (the Anglo-Saudi power bloc). The House of Saud by the way is actually Jewish, and ties into the Anglo-Judean establishment in London (with its outpost aka modern "Israel").

Apparently, Islam was pretty much created by the Vatican-Judeo syndicate as a mechanism for destroying the Byzantine Empire. Lots of intrigues, shifting alliances, and cool drama in those times with effects ongoing today.
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  #23  
Old 07-10-2020, 11:36 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

One other thing:

"As Joseph mentions, the army that destroyed Jerusalem was led by Roman generals but the actual soldiers were mainly from the neighbor nations. So the prince to come will be from those people, which are today the Islamic nations around Israel."

The neighboring nations around Judea were NOT Arabs. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia TODAY are all primarily Arabic with some Turkish admixture. These people were not Judea's neighbours in the 1st century except down in the Arabian peninsula. Syria in the 1st century was an ARAMEAN and GREEK nation, Egypt was Greek and ancient Coptic (Mizraimiy, a Hamitic people) and Phoenician. Under Mohammed and his successors the ARABS overran the middle east and that's basically who all these people are today. So no connection to first century Roman legionairres except a coincidence of geography. It's like taking a prophecy about Tejas Indians and saying it will be fulfilled by modern Texans. Or confusing 18th century Alabama Tribe Indians with modern residents of Mobile or Birmingham.
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  #24  
Old 07-11-2020, 08:05 AM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
One other thing:

"As Joseph mentions, the army that destroyed Jerusalem was led by Roman generals but the actual soldiers were mainly from the neighbor nations. So the prince to come will be from those people, which are today the Islamic nations around Israel."

The neighboring nations around Judea were NOT Arabs. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia TODAY are all primarily Arabic with some Turkish admixture. These people were not Judea's neighbours in the 1st century except down in the Arabian peninsula. Syria in the 1st century was an ARAMEAN and GREEK nation, Egypt was Greek and ancient Coptic (Mizraimiy, a Hamitic people) and Phoenician. Under Mohammed and his successors the ARABS overran the middle east and that's basically who all these people are today. So no connection to first century Roman legionairres except a coincidence of geography. It's like taking a prophecy about Tejas Indians and saying it will be fulfilled by modern Texans. Or confusing 18th century Alabama Tribe Indians with modern residents of Mobile or Birmingham.
That's a great observation. When I read about the Caliphates, they didn't practice exterminating of ethnics, or moving them to another region. How is possible that the ethnics that were around Jerusalem in the first century aren't the same ethnics (with some reasonable mixing over time, of course), that are around Jerusalem right now?
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  #25  
Old 07-11-2020, 03:35 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
That's a great observation. When I read about the Caliphates, they didn't practice exterminating of ethnics, or moving them to another region. How is possible that the ethnics that were around Jerusalem in the first century aren't the same ethnics (with some reasonable mixing over time, of course), that are around Jerusalem right now?
From Wikipedia:

After the Arab Islamic conquest of the region in the 7th century AD, native Arameans gradually became a minority in their homelands, the language was gradually replaced by Arabic, as increasing numbers of Arabs (together with Turkic and Iranian peoples) began to move into the region. Many Syriac Christians still speak various Aramaic dialects, including a small number who still speak the Western Neo-Aramaic language.

An Aramean identity is mainly held by a number of Syriac Christians in southcentral Turkey, southeastern Turkey, western, central, northern and southern Syria and in the Aramean diaspora especially in Germany and Sweden. In 2014, Israel allowed for Arab Christians to adopt Aramean identity, however, only 16 people did so from January 2014 to February 2017.

(End citation)

Apparently the Arabs displaced most of the indigenous pre-Arab populations of the ancient near east, with small pockets of politically insignificant remnants surviving here and there. The exception would be in Iran, where the Persian, Mede, and Turkic groups have remained.
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  #26  
Old 07-11-2020, 05:20 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Esaias, I think you would really enjoy a book called The Lost
History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia, and How It Died
by Dr. Philip Jenkins.

He addresses in great detail the very things you are writing about above.
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  #27  
Old 07-11-2020, 05:47 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I think Ellicot has confused the seventh with the eighth power.
You know, understanding the seventh head with the kingdom that gives rise to the beast aligns very nicely with Daniel vision.

[Rev 17:12-13 KJV] 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Notice that it doesn't say anywhere that the 10 kings are given power by the beast, but with the beast, and then clarifies that they give their all to the beast.

These are of course all speculation, things will become clear when we see it. However, within the Bible interpretation, I find Ellicot's one consistent with Daniel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
From Wikipedia:

After the Arab Islamic conquest of the region in the 7th century AD, native Arameans gradually became a minority in their homelands, the language was gradually replaced by Arabic, as increasing numbers of Arabs (together with Turkic and Iranian peoples) began to move into the region. Many Syriac Christians still speak various Aramaic dialects, including a small number who still speak the Western Neo-Aramaic language.

An Aramean identity is mainly held by a number of Syriac Christians in southcentral Turkey, southeastern Turkey, western, central, northern and southern Syria and in the Aramean diaspora especially in Germany and Sweden. In 2014, Israel allowed for Arab Christians to adopt Aramean identity, however, only 16 people did so from January 2014 to February 2017.

(End citation)

Apparently the Arabs displaced most of the indigenous pre-Arab populations of the ancient near east, with small pockets of politically insignificant remnants surviving here and there. The exception would be in Iran, where the Persian, Mede, and Turkic groups have remained.
That is interesting. If that's the case, then the "people of the prince to come" could be referring to the represented empire that attacked Jerusalem, that is the Roman Empire. Or it could be simply the gentiles as a whole. The beast in Rev 13 is described as having multiple animals traits, which could signify again a union of distinct kingdoms echoing Daniel's beasts, a diversity of ethnics, joined together as a massive empire. An alliance of Gentiles.

Islam could be one of the four horsemen then?

Last edited by coksiw; 07-11-2020 at 05:51 PM.
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  #28  
Old 07-11-2020, 09:10 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Esaias, I think you would really enjoy a book called The Lost
History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia, and How It Died
by Dr. Philip Jenkins.

He addresses in great detail the very things you are writing about above.
Thanks. I'll check into it.

Apparently at the time of the Muslim invasion of the Levant there was a tribe of Arab Christians who resisted the Muslims briefly but were defeated. Can't recall the name of their fiefdom at the moment though.
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  #29  
Old 07-11-2020, 09:15 PM
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Re: Empires in the Book of Revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
You know, understanding the seventh head with the kingdom that gives rise to the beast aligns very nicely with Daniel vision.

[Rev 17:12-13 KJV] 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Notice that it doesn't say anywhere that the 10 kings are given power by the beast, but with the beast, and then clarifies that they give their all to the beast.

These are of course all speculation, things will become clear when we see it. However, within the Bible interpretation, I find Ellicot's one consistent with Daniel.



That is interesting. If that's the case, then the "people of the prince to come" could be referring to the represented empire that attacked Jerusalem, that is the Roman Empire. Or it could be simply the gentiles as a whole. The beast in Rev 13 is described as having multiple animals traits, which could signify again a union of distinct kingdoms echoing Daniel's beasts, a diversity of ethnics, joined together as a massive empire. An alliance of Gentiles.

Islam could be one of the four horsemen then?
I believe the four horsemen represent the condition of the Roman Empire through four stages up to a great persecution of believers which then lead into the revolutionary changes brought about through Constantine's conversion and the public Christianization of the Empire (1st 6 seals).

I believe the Muslim invasions relate more to some of the trumpet judgments and the horde that ascends out of the bottomless pit. I'll post more later.
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