What I'm Learning From Islam:

[Aquila]

I look at it this way... it's all about "world view". They sincerely regard Mohamed (PBUH) as being the final Prophet. They see the Qur'an as the final and most perfect revelation of God. Now, that means that what they do must be viewed in light of what they believe BEFORE we can indeed judge them. Notice, I said "before" we can judge them. Their beliefs offers them what they believe to be unbending divine prerogative. Thus, if God commands anything... it is the commandment of God Almighty in their minds. Any faithful Muslim will not be acting out of malice or hatred, but rather obedience to what he or she believes to be divine will.

Now, with that being said we must also realize that there are various interpretations of the Qur'an just as their are various interpretations of the Bible. Many see the commands given in the Qur'an to be limited to a given time and place. For example, the commandment to slay "infidels" is connected to a certain military conflict between Mohamed's (PBUH) followers and those who had betrayed the treaty, killed peaceful Muslims, were using both treacherous Jews and Christians (Catholics) to assist them. They don't see it as a binding rule for all time, but a command given simply for that specific context. So we have to remember we should not judge Islam as a whole on the more radical extremists and their interpretation of the Qur'an.

I compare the radical Islamists to the radicals in Ireland, Croatia, and early Protestantism that shed much blood as a result of their interpretation of the Bible. For example, it is written...

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Many Christians used to believe (and many still do) that this means that a given government is an anointed agent of God to wield the sword to impose justice and/or war. They saw it as wholesale approval from God for their kings and the Popes to wage merciless and blood wars in the name of Jesus. These were indeed the Dark Ages. In a very real sense... Islam is currently experiencing it's Dark Ages. Once this extremism pushes it's agenda so far that entire Muslim nations are in upheaval against them... we might see a glimmer of an Islamic Reformation and a return to a more sane and peaceful way of Islamic life. The Islamic civilization has given us many advancements down through the ages, prior to their sinking into this religious extremism and glorification of war and bloodshed. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see a more tempered and more peaceful Islam in the Middle East one day? I pray that there would be a revival among the Muslim peoples. That many would accept Christ... and that many devout Muslims would be inspired to pick up the banner of peace and true brotherhood so that the senseless killing stops and so that both Muslim and Christian can one day live in relative peace.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree.

The point I was making from the Psalms, is that the psalmist appears to make it clear that he would pray morning, evening, and at noon... three times a day. I don't see this as a legalistic rule. I see it more like a devotional suggestion for the sake of personal spiritual intimacy with God.

i agree with you here.

our family prays every night. we are doing our best to incorporate morning prayer as a family before we leave to start our day.

its a good disipline and we need to do it. any call to greater consideration of prayer is a good thing....

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Wouldn't it be wonderful to see a more tempered and more peaceful Islam in the Middle East one day? I pray that there would be a revival among the Muslim peoples. That many would accept Christ... and that many devout Muslims would be inspired to pick up the banner of peace and true brotherhood so that the senseless killing stops and so that both Muslim and Christian can one day live in relative peace.

[odooley6985]

Originally Posted by n david

And you're the scholar? Tell me, what books have you studied, I'd like to check them out. What books have you read on the historical context and customs?


To coin a quote, "you're commenting on something that you [obviously] don't know jack about." If you are seriously claiming that the Bible still advocates that Christians kill nonbelievers and sinners, you need to read the Bible again. Show me one verse in the NT where Jesus [or any apostle] commanded us to kill sinners or nonbelievers. There isn't one.

You reference the OT, but fail to understand the reason and context of Israel's instructions from God. And then you demand I study the historical context and customs of a false religion!?


They don't believe the same God if they don't believe Jesus is God. They believe in A God, but not the true God.

So the OT doesn't matter to you? Your bible is only the NT? My comment was meant to show not that I am a quranic scholar but that you can take any verse in the bible and quran and show it to mean a lot of things. Unless you know the context of a verse and actually study the holy book you are talking about you shouldn't and cant say something about a religion.

[n david]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

So the OT doesn't matter to you? Your bible is only the NT?

I never said the OT doesn't matter; in fact, I stated you should practice what you preach when trying to allege that christians are instructed to kill sinners and nonbelievers. That's not what the Bible teaches. Neither in the OT nor in the NT.

Yes, the reason the Israelites were to kill every man, women, child and beast of the Amalekites is because God instructed them to. However, the reason wasn't just because they were non-Israelites. The reason, IMO, is because God was putting judgement on them for attacking Israel when they left Egypt. Read it for yourself, 1 Sam 15. BTW, Saul's refusal to kill the Amalekite King resulted in two things: 1) David was captured years later; and 2) the entire Israelite population was almost exterminated by Haman, who was a descendent of the Amalekites.

As far as the Canaanites, God put a curse on them in Genesis, and in Deuteronomy God's reason is to prevent the Canaanites from leading the Israelites astray.

Nowhere in the Bible (OT or NT), does it command us to kill sinners or nonbelievers. I dare you to try and prove me wrong, without twisting scripture into a pretzel trying to do so, as you did with Romans 1:32.

Originally Posted by odooley6985

My comment was meant to show not that I am a quranic scholar but that you can take any verse in the bible and quran and show it to mean a lot of things. Unless you know the context of a verse and actually study the holy book you are talking about you shouldn't and cant say something about a religion.

Nice backtrack. You stated: "You are commenting on something that you don't know jack about. Study the Quran, historical context, and customs of the day and then get back to me about evil islam."

That implied that 1) you know more than you believe I knew about Islam; and 2) you had studied the Quran and the historical context and customs of Islam.

So other than wiki-docs on the Quran and Islam, have you actually truly studied the Quran or any historical context and customs? Color me skeptical.

And, BTW, I don't have to study historical context or customs in order to state what I did: "Muhammad's a false prophet, deceiver and the founder of a religion who believes, as was mentioned, in pedophilia, brutal murder, and the beating of women."

You know what, I know absolutely nothing about the historical context or customs of Hinduism, Buddhism or Witchcraft...does that mean I can't say they're false religions which have deceived many?

[Aquila]

I don't think anyone is understanding what anyone is actually trying to say.

No one is saying that the Bible requires that Christians kill people. However, what is being said is that verses of the Bible have been taken out of their context as "evidence" that the Bible does command believers to kill their enemies. The over all point is that the same is often done with the Qur'an.

Now, to get a little deeper here it should be advised that there is a Christian movement in the United States known as Christian Recontructionism. Reconstructionists advocate a "Christian Government" and would execute criminals for breaking laws in the OT that required a death sentence under Moses. They also believe in a "cultural mandate" that would require a "Christianized Government" to conquer godless nations and subject them to the authority of Christ's Kingdom. A study of this group might shock you. Many big name Evangelicals are a part of this movement.

On the Islamic front we have groups like al-Qaeda and others that are equally as extreme. However they are advancing a radical form of Islam that doesn't necessarily fit the common interpretations of the Qur'an.

For the most part, today the differences between America and the Muslim world are primarily political, not religious. So both Muslims and Christians who throw mud out of religious bigotry should cool their jets.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No one is saying that the Bible requires that Christians kill people.

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Neither do all Muslims. The bible calls for murder as well. So maybe we dont follow the bible like we think we do.

Originally Posted by odooley6985

If being gay is still a sin, then according to bible we should kill them. Same with any other sin.

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Romans 1:24-32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 Jeremiah 48:10

The OT alone is chalk full of commandments to kill those who do various things.

[odooley6985]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't think anyone is understanding what anyone is actually trying to say.

No one is saying that the Bible requires that Christians kill people. However, what is being said is that verses of the Bible have been taken out of their context as "evidence" that the Bible does command believers to kill their enemies. The over all point is that the same is often done with the Qur'an.

Now, to get a little deeper here it should be advised that there is a Christian movement in the United States known as Christian Recontructionism. Reconstructionists advocate a "Christian Government" and would execute criminals for breaking laws in the OT that required a death sentence under Moses. They also believe in a "cultural mandate" that would require a "Christianized Government" to conquer godless nations and subject them to the authority of Christ's Kingdom. A study of this group might shock you. Many big name Evangelicals are a part of this movement.

On the Islamic front we have groups like al-Qaeda and others that are equally as extreme. However they are advancing a radical form of Islam that doesn't necessarily fit the common interpretations of the Qur'an.

For the most part, today the differences between America and the Muslim world are primarily political, not religious. So both Muslims and Christians who throw mud out of religious bigotry should cool their jets.

This. I wasnt serious when I posted that. And this is no back track. Basically my point was that without historical knowledge and proper context any verse could be twisted to mean what ever you want it to.

That being said, Gal 1:8 without a doubt proves that Islam and mormonism is wrong.

[odooley6985]

They claim the Quran to be the words of GOD but they arent. Gabriel supposedly gave the Quran to Muhhamed

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Basically my point was that without historical knowledge and proper context any verse could be twisted to mean what ever you want it to...

Actually, WITH historical knowledge and WITH "proper context " most verses can be twisted to mean whatever you want it to...

For some people (ie, me) there exists NO "proper context" that would justify immorality, such as genocide, baby-kiliing, and murdering of one's own family members for religious reasons--but all these atrocities were commanded by the Yahweh God, with whom Jesus claimed to be "One." Fascinating thing to observe is how the morality of a culture is directly reflected in the exhibited morality of their gods.

None of the Abrahamic gods (but Allah comes the closest) have ever advocated freedom of religion:

Exodus 32:27: thus say the LORD God of Israel: "Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."
28 So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day.

OOPS, I left out the CONTEXT, eh?