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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #271  
Old 08-17-2022, 07:06 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Now, once again, please give a verse by verse exegesis as I did, and show me what verse I am incorrect in exegeting and why, and show why your interpretation is the correct one. You STILL have not done that.
Well?

And I noticed you cannot refrain from calling me a liar. Why make this personal? That is a sign of a defeated argument and the defeated one getting nasty. Now, I hope you don't focus on that note rather than the one I've been asking your for says now... EXEGETE 1 Cor 9.
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  #272  
Old 08-17-2022, 07:30 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Well?

And I noticed you cannot refrain from calling me a liar. Why make this personal? That is a sign of a defeated argument and the defeated one getting nasty. Now, I hope you don't focus on that note rather than the one I've been asking your for says now... EXEGETE 1 Cor 9.
My point is that you did not exegete the passage. You are putting things in (income) that are not there. Meanwhile, you claim to be exegeting the passage. What you are doing is the opposite of exegesis. It is eisegesis. Which is putting things INTO the scripture formed from your own biases.

Ex means out. Exegesis means to get the correct meaning from. That is not what you are doing. If food and drink are income, as you say, they would be subject to income tax.

Why do you not answer the question? What was the money that they used to buy food and drink with, if as you say, food and drink was income?

Were they using income, to purchase income?

You’re certainly willing to twist words and scripture to make your biased opinion fit.

When the Sunday school teachers were volunteering, was the pastor volunteering as well?

Or do only pastors who teach deserve tithes?

According to you.
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  #273  
Old 08-17-2022, 08:06 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister View Post
My point is that you did not exegete the passage. You are putting things in (income) that are not there. Meanwhile, you claim to be exegeting the passage. What you are doing is the opposite of exegesis. It is eisegesis. Which is putting things INTO the scripture formed from your own biases.

Ex means out. Exegesis means to get the correct meaning from. That is not what you are doing. If food and drink are income, as you say, they would be subject to income tax.

Why do you not answer the question? What was the money that they used to buy food and drink with, if as you say, food and drink was income?

Were they using income, to purchase income?

You’re certainly willing to twist words and scripture to make your biased opinion fit.

When the Sunday school teachers were volunteering, was the pastor volunteering as well?

Or do only pastors who teach deserve tithes?

According to you.
I indeed exegeted the passage, and you are not doing it in return. I explained why my view is correct by showing you that it is what 1 Cor 9 teaches, and took each verse and explained what each verse meant and why your view is incorrect. I got my teaching from carefully reading this chapter and letting it correct me.

Try again.

You said that you would exegete it after you claimed that you thought that I only asked Coksiw to exegete, and I indicated that it was for you or anyone else. So, you said you would, now do it.
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-17-2022 at 08:11 PM.
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  #274  
Old 08-17-2022, 10:35 PM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Ladies ladies...you're all pretty.
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  #275  
Old 08-18-2022, 12:31 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

In looking at 1 Cor 9, I don't see where anybody is being discussed except apostles and the congregation. I do not see how 1 Cor 9 itself can be used to support the idea that other teachers, pastors, etc are to receive money in exchange for their ministering.

I also don't see where 1 Cor 9 is discussing money per se. The immediate context is "to eat and drink":
Have we not power to eat and to drink?
(1Co 9:4)
This is in line with Jesus' instructions to His apostles and missionary evagelists:
And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
(Luk 10:7)
The idea that "income back then was food and drink, but today is money" is incorrect. Money was used back then just as it is today: to buy victuals (food and drink, and other needful items). The missionary support program established by Jesus was the missionary was hosted by someone who fed them and gave them a place to stay and from which to preach (free room and board). This was given at a time when there were indeed travelling "teachers" who taught for money. So it is safe and sound to assume Jesus intentionally set things up a certain way for a specific reason. And yes that reason still exists today. The idea that the Bible is relevant to back then but only relevant to us today in the form of "examples from which we can make our own way" is erroneous and way oversimplified. We need to stop thinking we know better than God. There's a reason God's message to mankind (for all time) is in the form it is in.

Now, concerning other teachers (pastors) and elders who have the oversight, I think the Bible DOES teach they are to be supported at least in part by the congregation in some form or another:
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
(1Ti 5:17-18)

Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
(Gal 6:6)
The term "honour" in 1 Tim 5:17 refers to support and maintenance:
Honour widows that are widows indeed. But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God.
(1Ti 5:3-4)

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
(Mar 7:9-12)
Honour thus refers to support and maintenance. This means providing food and other necessary items for living. The elders who have oversight and who are responsible for teaching (what today many would call "pastors") are thus to be supported. In fact, they are to receive a "double" portion. Double of course is relative, they are to receive more than would normally be considered appropriate for the amount of work they put in. IE they were to be like a "highly paid" worker who doesn't necessarily do more work per se than the others, but because of tenure, seniority, and value of the work they do, they get paid more. There are of course others who are to be supported.

Who are the others? Obviously, widows were part of the "others", as we have just seen, and as also seen here:
And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
(Act 6:1-2)

If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
(1Ti 5:16)
We also see this:
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(Act 2:45)

Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
(Act 4:34-35)
Which explains this:
For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
(2Th 3:7-12)
In other words, the church supported the poor members with necessaries, mostly consisting of making sure the poor had food to eat. This was extended to the elders and teachers, who spent their time ministering the word of God. The REASON of course is because those elders and ministers pretty much did nothing BUT teach and oversee the church. This wasn't "two sermons a week" but a constant daily thing:
And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
(Act 5:42)

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(Act 20:31)
Since that was their job, they usually didn't have the means to support themselves. Paul and Barnabas, however, did not use that right for themselves, but they found a way to support themselves. They also taught the elders and teachers they ordained to do the same:
I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
(Act 20:33-35)

For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
(2Th 3:7-9)
So, from all this, it appears that missionaries (apostles) were supported by the church when necessary, and supported themselves when possible. Further, teachers and elders were also supported when necessary, and as the opportunity arose, and supported themselves when possible and when needful. And, anybody in the church who was poor and unable to support themself was supported by the church. This support consisted primarily in food, as well as lodging when needed. But it cannot be said that money was wholly and entirely ruled out or forbidden, since what we are seeing taught is the idea of support that meets the need. If the need is a monetary need (pay the bills, pay for transportation, pay to buy food, etc) then money would certainly be included in the idea of support.

That being said, there does not appear to be anything remotely hinting at any "stated income" of money offered in exchange for teaching. IE a "salary". It appears that the goal was to make sure elders, teachers, missionaries, etc get the job done, and that everybody was involved in making that happen. Also, the poor, widows, etc were to be supported when and where needed.

Unfortunately most modern "churches" are just for profit businesses focusing on motivational speeches and entertainment ("worship") and social clubbing (the singles "ministry", the married couples "ministry", the seniors "ministry") while maintaining a charade of "non profit status" to get away from reporting income and paying taxes.
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Last edited by Esaias; 08-18-2022 at 12:36 AM.
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  #276  
Old 08-18-2022, 08:24 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
In looking at 1 Cor 9, I don't see where anybody is being discussed except apostles and the congregation. I do not see how 1 Cor 9 itself can be used to support the idea that other teachers, pastors, etc are to receive money in exchange for their ministering.

I also don't see where 1 Cor 9 is discussing money per se. The immediate context is "to eat and drink":
Have we not power to eat and to drink?
(1Co 9:4)
This is in line with Jesus' instructions to His apostles and missionary evagelists:
And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
(Luk 10:7)
The idea that "income back then was food and drink, but today is money" is incorrect. Money was used back then just as it is today: to buy victuals (food and drink, and other needful items). The missionary support program established by Jesus was the missionary was hosted by someone who fed them and gave them a place to stay and from which to preach (free room and board). This was given at a time when there were indeed travelling "teachers" who taught for money. So it is safe and sound to assume Jesus intentionally set things up a certain way for a specific reason. And yes that reason still exists today. The idea that the Bible is relevant to back then but only relevant to us today in the form of "examples from which we can make our own way" is erroneous and way oversimplified. We need to stop thinking we know better than God. There's a reason God's message to mankind (for all time) is in the form it is in.
I explained before, evidently to no avail, that INCOME INCLUDED food and drink back then, not that it was the only form that of which their income was comprised. I never said they had no money. We all know about shekels, etc. They had money. But food was also used at that time to stand as income.

The whole chapter is not only about apostles. It is about ministers of the gospel. TO LIVE of the gospel is receive all that the culture in which you live uses to forego work.

AND GOD BLESSES IT. He has blessed our folks! And in case anyone thinks this, It is not a blessing that involves overlooking errors and faults of the method, either. That is absurd.

The principle applies to all eras. Foregoing work to commit oneself to full-time ministry is meant for all who minister the gospel. Currently, I work outside the church and also receive suport from the church. It is NOT limited to apostles.
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Last edited by mfblume; 08-18-2022 at 09:19 AM.
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  #277  
Old 08-19-2022, 01:07 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I explained before, evidently to no avail, that INCOME INCLUDED food and drink back then, not that it was the only form that of which their income was comprised. I never said they had no money. We all know about shekels, etc. They had money. But food was also used at that time to stand as income.
I was under the impression you were asserting that food was the PRIMARY income and currency in use at that time. I do believe you were saying that.

Quote:
The whole chapter is not only about apostles. It is about ministers of the gospel. TO LIVE of the gospel is receive all that the culture in which you live uses to forego work.
The chapter is talking about apostles. I already pointed out how the support for elders and teachers (and widows and the poor) is established by other Scriptures.

Quote:
AND GOD BLESSES IT. He has blessed our folks! And in case anyone thinks this, It is not a blessing that involves overlooking errors and faults of the method, either. That is absurd.
Every good gift comes from God. So, even Donald Trump has been blessed with wealth, power, influence, etc. That doesn't say anything whatsoever about the propriety of the methods by which he achieved wealth, power, and influence.

Quote:
The principle applies to all eras. Foregoing work to commit oneself to full-time ministry is meant for all who minister the gospel. Currently, I work outside the church and also receive suport from the church. It is NOT limited to apostles.
Honestly, I have only met ONE person doing what Biblically could be identified as "full time ministry". I have also met a LOT of "full time pastors" who literally only work a couple hours a week at "pastoring". I have also met others who work more hours per week, and some who quite frankly worked none. But only ONE man have I ever met that I can say without reservation was a genuine bonafide FULL TIME MINISTER. At least as far as I knew of his life and ministry. I am not saying there aren't others. But I AM saying they are far fewer than some on this thread would have us believe.

Did you ever explain the following passage?
I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
(Act 20:33-35)
Did the apostle not tell the elders that they were to follow his example and work and provide support out of their own pockets (as it were) for the needy in the local congregation? Does this apostolic instruction apply to you? If not, why not?
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  #278  
Old 08-19-2022, 10:38 AM
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
(Act 20:33-35)

Paul was telling the elders at Ephesus that they should follow his example in supporting yourselves and helping people that are worse off then we are. Paul also says this too:

2 Corinthians 11:8
I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.

Acts 20 doesn’t contradict the principle of not muzzling the ox. There are commands to the church to support those who labor in the gospel, and there are commands to preachers of the gospel how they are to support the church. Bottom line is that we should view one another as family and should support one another.

Each of us should, preacher and saints, should use their income as part of their ministry. Some in ministry may not be able to pursue a income from secular work because they have devoted all their time to the ministry of the church. Also there are gonna be washed up preachers one day that are over the hill, that have no retirement because they forfeited there best years serving the church who they didn’t reciprocate back to them. God will sort it all out though.

Last edited by good samaritan; 08-19-2022 at 11:41 AM.
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  #279  
Old 08-19-2022, 10:30 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post

Each of us should, preacher and saints, should use their income as part of their ministry. Some in ministry may not be able to pursue a income from secular work because they have devoted all their time to the ministry of the church. Also there are gonna be washed up preachers one day that are over the hill, that have no retirement because they forfeited there best years serving the church who they didn’t reciprocate back to them. God will sort it all out though.
How funny, I know at this moment people not saving for retirement to their 401k because they can't afford it, but yet they give tithes because the preacher said it goes above all the things. Coincidentally, I go to a church where there are several pastors that retired attending, and they are all doing well and not being a burden on anyone. God will sort it all out, though. The "abuse" is in both directions, my friend, and the long term consequences are in both camps.

I think it is easier if we all lower expectations about pastorship not being a career where everybody wants to be full time hired professional, but instead understand that this is the work of God, and most congregations don't need full time ministers but instead training from the beginning, as the vision, to give saints opportunities to take leadership, and eldership, instead of planning for a "succession" of kings, and separate "layman" from "clergy"

The problem is that many saints do want a king, a professional.

1Sa 8:11-18 NKJV - (11) And he said, "This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint [them] for his own chariots and [to be] his horsemen, and [some] will run before his chariots. (12) "He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, [will set some] to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and [some] to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. (13) "He will take your daughters [to be] perfumers, cooks, and bakers. (14) "And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give [them] to his servants. (15) "He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. (16) "And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put [them] to his work. (17) "He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. (18) "And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day."
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  #280  
Old 08-19-2022, 11:22 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: History of Tithes in the Church

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
How funny, I know at this moment people not saving for retirement to their 401k because they can't afford it, but yet they give tithes because the preacher said it goes above all the things. Coincidentally, I go to a church where there are several pastors that retired attending, and they are all doing well and not being a burden on anyone. God will sort it all out, though. The "abuse" is in both directions, my friend, and the long term consequences are in both camps.

I think it is easier if we all lower expectations about pastorship not being a career where everybody wants to be full time hired professional, but instead understand that this is the work of God, and most congregations don't need full time ministers but instead training from the beginning, as the vision, to give saints opportunities to take leadership, and eldership, instead of planning for a "succession" of kings, and separate "layman" from "clergy"

The problem is that many saints do want a king, a professional.

1Sa 8:11-18 NKJV - (11) And he said, "This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint [them] for his own chariots and [to be] his horsemen, and [some] will run before his chariots. (12) "He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, [will set some] to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and [some] to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. (13) "He will take your daughters [to be] perfumers, cooks, and bakers. (14) "And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give [them] to his servants. (15) "He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. (16) "And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put [them] to his work. (17) "He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. (18) "And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day."

Actually, funny story. I have a friend, with a general license, that took a small congregation as a pastor, and the congregation laid him off because they wanted him to be full time and he did not want to
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