Forgiveness or Remission?

[james34]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So you believe that one can be baptized in the Holy Ghost, without being remitted of their sins?

God does not inhabit a temple not cleansed by the blood. The house of Cornelius were inhabited/filled with the Holy Ghost.

So to yo, Do you believe they were still in their sins?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyone?

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Jesus went about forgiving sins without any sacraments. Freely forgave with only one condition. Faith!!! We receive forgiveness upon putting our faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. True faith and repentance goes hand in hand.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

God has not changed his methods, they have been the same from the beginning. We must put our faith in God to become his children.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now in regarding the sacraments of baptism.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

After believing the word, the believers response was immediate. They where pricked in their hearts (convicted) and asked what they must do?

True faith is going to be followed by immediate obedience. Faith that does not result in repentance, is not faith.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repentance and baptism are the response to our faith. Yeeesssss, they are necessary!!! It is not my intent at all, to devalue our downplay the necessity of water baptism. Faith requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:18-20
18......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19......Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20......Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said to spread this message to all nations and to baptize them in His name. That is exactly what Peter did.

Acts 2:38-39
38......Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39......For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism is part of the obedience that is necessary of our Faith. The question: is it the sacrament itself that works unto salvation or is it our faith. May persuasion is that it is our faith.

I personally believe baptism was instituted more for our benefit than for anything else.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is symbolic of the spiritual work that God is doing. Therefore we must obey, but the act of forgiveness and remission is entirely up to God. We don’t force forgiveness by sacraments. We receive forgiveness by faith that is proven by the works that follow.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In a nutshell we are probably not even in disagreement on the issue, but simply have a difference of faith explanation.

That leads to another question:

Can a person be saved without baptism?

Let me answer that with a question:

If we put our faith in Jesus as our Lord and savior, must we obey?

Yes, of course.

In the case of deathbed conversions, that is Gods decision. He is the one we will all stand before.

[diakonos]

*Just a side note*
I just recently heard, a "big wig" in the baptist organization stated publicly that baptists are going to return to their Holy Ghost speaking in Tongues heritage.... Things looks like it's going to get interesting.

Name, please.

[Steven Avery]

Today, coming out of a textual discussion, I was reading from the Erasmus letter countering:

Jacques Lefèvre - (c.1455–1536)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques...27%C3%89taples,

and noticed that the distinction of remission and forgiveness was apparently a controversy in the 1500s. This is in a translation of Erasmus from Latin to English, using just the pages available in Google books, and noticing many fascinating elements to their discussion.

========================

Controversies (1997)
Apology against Jacques Lefevre d'Etaples
Apologia ad lacobum Fabrum Stapulensem
translated by Howard Jones
and annotated by Guy Bedouelle
https://books.google.com/books?id=DjFXAJbzlEsC&pg=PA90

Those who are now howling in criticism because in the Lord's Prayer I have had the temerity to change 'forgive us our debts' to 'remit our debts,' 358 ...

358 The controversy set Erasmus and Thomas More, on the one side, against John Batmanson, on the other (Rummel Catholic Critics 1 118-19).

========================

There are a number of interesting elements in the Erasmus-LeFevre back and forth.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

You are very proud. I have been meaning to respond, but have not the time at the moment. I do have a life outside of AFF.

I have learned a lot from AFF, and will continue to learn. I do think the church in general carries a lot of pagan, Roman and Pentecostal traditions, like pagan holidays, and not being able to see that in the KJV, aphesis, strong's G863 is translated as remission and forgiveness.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄφεσις áphesis, af'-es-is; from G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon:—deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 17x
The KJV translates Strong's G859 in the following manner: remission (9x), forgiveness (6x), deliverance (1x), liberty (1x).

I apologize for offending you.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I have learned a lot from AFF, and will continue to learn. I do think the church in general carries a lot of pagan, Roman and Pentecostal traditions, like pagan holidays, and not being able to see that in the KJV, aphesis, strong's G863 is translated as remission and forgiveness.

Strong’s Definitions
ἄφεσις áphesis, af'-es-is; from G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon:—deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 17x
The KJV translates Strong's G859 in the following manner: remission (9x), forgiveness (6x), deliverance (1x), liberty (1x).

I apologize for offending you.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Today, coming out of a textual discussion, I was reading from the Erasmus letter countering:

Jacques Lefèvre - (c.1455–1536)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques...27%C3%89taples,

and noticed that the distinction of remission and forgiveness was apparently a controversy in the 1500s. This is in a translation of Erasmus from Latin to English, using just the pages available in Google books, and noticing many fascinating elements to their discussion.

========================

Controversies (1997)
Apology against Jacques Lefevre d'Etaples
Apologia ad lacobum Fabrum Stapulensem
translated by Howard Jones
and annotated by Guy Bedouelle
https://books.google.com/books?id=DjFXAJbzlEsC&pg=PA90

Those who are now howling in criticism because in the Lord's Prayer I have had the temerity to change 'forgive us our debts' to 'remit our debts,' 358 ...

358 The controversy set Erasmus and Thomas More, on the one side, against John Batmanson, on the other (Rummel Catholic Critics 1 118-19).

========================

There are a number of interesting elements in the Erasmus-LeFevre back and forth.

I believe that is referring to a paraphrase he did in which he substituted condonare for what he had previously written as remittere (as also the Vulgate). But in another place he uses remittere (I believe in Luke).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Jesus went about forgiving sins without any sacraments. Freely forgave with only one condition. Faith!!! We receive forgiveness upon putting our faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. True faith and repentance goes hand in hand.

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

God has not changed his methods, they have been the same from the beginning. We must put our faith in God to become his children.

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?

Now in regarding the sacraments of baptism.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

After believing the word, the believers response was immediate. They where pricked in their hearts (convicted) and asked what they must do?

True faith is going to be followed by immediate obedience. Faith that does not result in repentance, is not faith.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repentance and baptism are the response to our faith. Yeeesssss, they are necessary!!! It is not my intent at all, to devalue our downplay the necessity of water baptism. Faith requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

Matthew 28:18-20
18......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19......Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20......Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said to spread this message to all nations and to baptize them in His name. That is exactly what Peter did.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

Acts 2:38-39
38......Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39......For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism is part of the obedience that is necessary of our Faith.

How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

The question: is it the sacrament itself that works unto salvation or is it our faith. May persuasion is that it is our faith.

That is not the question in this discussion. It is rather "Where does the Bible teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission, and Where does the Bible teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?

I personally believe baptism was instituted more for our benefit than for anything else.

Yes, because it is the mechanism in which God washes away our sins through faith in Christ, because it is in baptism that we identify with His death and resurrection. Baptism is the means by which we exercise faith in His atonement and identify Him as our substitute, it is how we "trust in Jesus".

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is symbolic of the spiritual work that God is doing. Therefore we must obey, but the act of forgiveness and remission is entirely up to God. We don’t force forgiveness by sacraments. We receive forgiveness by faith that is proven by the works that follow.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Faith in Jesus to be pardoned is dead without baptism into His name. I think you inadvertently made my case for me.

In any event, I do not see where you even addressed the alleged Biblical differences between forgiveness and remission, nor do I see where you showed Christian conversions in which people were forgiven before being baptized.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by james34

God does not inhabit a temple not cleansed by the blood. The house of Cornelius were inhabited/filled with the Holy Ghost.

So to yo, Do you believe they were still in their sins?

Romans 6:3-8 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

So according to you they got the Holy Ghost before they were baptized into Christ's death? Before being made free from sin? Interesting...

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?



How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?



How does this verse teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



How does this verse teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



That is not the question in this discussion. It is rather "Where does the Bible teach a distinction between forgiveness and remission, and Where does the Bible teach sins are forgiven prior to baptism?



Yes, because it is the mechanism in which God washes away our sins through faith in Christ, because it is in baptism that we identify with His death and resurrection. Baptism is the means by which we exercise faith in His atonement and identify Him as our substitute, it is how we "trust in Jesus".



Faith in Jesus to be pardoned is dead without baptism into His name. I think you inadvertently made my case for me.

In any event, I do not see where you even addressed the alleged Biblical differences between forgiveness and remission, nor do I see where you showed Christian conversions in which people were forgiven before being baptized.

Maybe you need to go back and follow the discussion.