Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 10-19-2022, 03:40 PM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood too


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,122
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
I explained it right there. I see plenty of evidences that they spoke Aramaic in Palestine, and yes, the Hebrew Scriptures was read in the synagogues, which then was explained in Aramaic.
Actually, when Jesus was handed the scroll in the synagogue, the portion of Isaiah was from the Greek. Also the name "synagogue" is Greek. The Judeans called their places of gathering by the Greek title in the first century to this day. Again, the Greek was the language of the occupation going back to the time of Alexander and his generals. When Pompey enter into the city of Jerusalem in 63 BC, he didn't need a translator. He was met by Judeans who could speak Greek. Hebrew was a liturgical language, Greek was the language of commerce, and the Eastern Roman empire. Aramaic was the language of the people ever since they came out of Babylonian captivity. The New Testament was to be relayed around the known world, and since that was its purpose, ancient dead and local languages wouldn't reach the desired populace. The New Testament was to reach the hands of those in the Diaspora. Judeans all over the Roman Empire. If it was only written in Hebrew/Aramaic it would of been of little use to people of the empire. Especially the Roman Gentiles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Well, it wasn't what I meant. What I meant was that Jesus spoke in Aramaic those words, and the Gospel writer translated it into Greek to write it on the Greek autograph. I'm not saying the Gospel was originally written in Aramaic (as some say).
Jesus spoke Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. Possibly Latin. Three languages were spoken in the city of Jerusalem. Greek, Aramaic, and Latin. Because we are told that the document nailed over the head of Jesus on the cross was in these three languages. Trilingual inscriptions were popular in the ancient world. The Behistun inscription includes three versions of the same text, written in three different cuneiform script languages: Old Persian, Elamite, and Akkadian, three Semitic languages. The Rosetta Stone has Greek, Hieroglyphics, and Demotic Egyptian. Interestingly enough, the name Egypt was given the country by the Greeks and Romans, Αἴγυπτος. But, I digress getting back to Jesus' document nailed over His head being trilingual. We are told that it was written trilingual because the crucifixion was near the city. Which means as all trilingual inscriptions were aiming that no one missed the message. The Judeans in Jerusalem could speak, and read at least languages.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Well, an example is "Deuteronomy 32:43". We didn't have the variant reading containing the words quoted in the NT in Hebrew, but we had it the LXX. And then the DSS revealed that there was indeed a Hebrew variant reading that contained those words.
This only proves that both renderings were contemporary. In the DSS there are scrolls of the OT in Greek. Another thing, during the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 AD. Messages went back and forth in Hebrew. Only the Zealot officers were able to read these messages. As the leaders of the rebellion were killed off, the regular soldiers sent messages back written in Greek. Complaining that they were unable to read the Hebrew.


Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Do you use the LXX for the O.T. for your reading, study, and preaching? What are you thoughts?
I use both. Yet, it is interesting to note, that I use Bibles which are in different languages. Which I found over the years how translation from one language to another is no lite matter.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-19-2022, 10:07 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Actually, when Jesus was handed the scroll in the synagogue, the portion of Isaiah was from the Greek. Also the name "synagogue" is Greek. The Judeans called their places of gathering by the Greek title in the first century to this day. Again, the Greek was the language of the occupation going back to the time of Alexander and his generals. When Pompey enter into the city of Jerusalem in 63 BC, he didn't need a translator. He was met by Judeans who could speak Greek. Hebrew was a liturgical language, Greek was the language of commerce, and the Eastern Roman empire. Aramaic was the language of the people ever since they came out of Babylonian captivity. The New Testament was to be relayed around the known world, and since that was its purpose, ancient dead and local languages wouldn't reach the desired populace. The New Testament was to reach the hands of those in the Diaspora. Judeans all over the Roman Empire. If it was only written in Hebrew/Aramaic it would of been of little use to people of the empire. Especially the Roman Gentiles.



Jesus spoke Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. Possibly Latin. Three languages were spoken in the city of Jerusalem. Greek, Aramaic, and Latin. Because we are told that the document nailed over the head of Jesus on the cross was in these three languages. Trilingual inscriptions were popular in the ancient world. The Behistun inscription includes three versions of the same text, written in three different cuneiform script languages: Old Persian, Elamite, and Akkadian, three Semitic languages. The Rosetta Stone has Greek, Hieroglyphics, and Demotic Egyptian. Interestingly enough, the name Egypt was given the country by the Greeks and Romans, Αἴγυπτος. But, I digress getting back to Jesus' document nailed over His head being trilingual. We are told that it was written trilingual because the crucifixion was near the city. Which means as all trilingual inscriptions were aiming that no one missed the message. The Judeans in Jerusalem could speak, and read at least languages.




This only proves that both renderings were contemporary. In the DSS there are scrolls of the OT in Greek. Another thing, during the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 AD. Messages went back and forth in Hebrew. Only the Zealot officers were able to read these messages. As the leaders of the rebellion were killed off, the regular soldiers sent messages back written in Greek. Complaining that they were unable to read the Hebrew.




I use both. Yet, it is interesting to note, that I use Bibles which are in different languages. Which I found over the years how translation from one language to another is no lite matter.
Good info. That's pretty much what I have been finding out since I began to research this topic a few days ago. Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-19-2022, 10:19 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: William Whiston - essay on the true text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Some notes on the Whiston work.

===================



"Perhaps No One General Answer Will Do": Cotton Mather's
Commentary On The Synoptic Gospels In "Biblia Americana"Commentary On The Synoptic Gospels In "Biblia Americana" (2018)
Grace Sara Harwood
https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/vie...t=english_diss

===================



An Introduction to the Old Testament, Volume 2 (1894)
Friedrich Bleek
https://books.google.com/books?id=kE9RNU3uajEC&pg=PA361

===================
Thank you for sharing. I started reading it. Very interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-20-2022, 07:41 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,408
Re: William Whiston - essay on the true text

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
My last paragraph was in reference to Whiston, I just quoted Brenton's Isaiah for reference to the two NT references. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
Yes, I was pointing out two claims of Whiston that are very problematic.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-26-2022, 03:52 AM
Amanah's Avatar
Amanah Amanah is offline
Covenant Apostolic


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 8,754
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

I just found this in the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) bible introduction:

"On the History of Bible Translation

Bible translation began about 2,200 years ago, in the third century B.C.E., as the large Jewish population of Alexandria, Egypt, came under the influence of Hellenism. When the Greek language replaced Hebrew and Aramaic as their vernacular, and the Torah in its Hebrew original was no longer commonly understood, a translation into Greek was made for the Jewish community of Alexandria. This translation came to be known as the Septuagint, Latin for “seventy,” because of the legend that the committee of translators numbered seventy-two, six elders from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

In the last few centuries B.C.E., the Jews who lived to the north and east of Judea also found the Hebrew Bible difficult to understand, for their spoken language had become largely Aramaic. Translations into Aramaic, first of the Torah and then of the rest of the Bible, became known as the Targums. The Septuagint and the Targums are not only the oldest translations of the Bible but also the most influential. Down to our own day, virtually every Christian translation has followed the methods of the Jewish translators who created the Septuagint, and generally followed their renderings of the Hebrew as well. The Christian translators also were influenced by the interpretation of the Hebrew text set forth in the Targums (much of it in oral form at the time) and by the writings of the Jewish philosopher-interpreter Philo of Alexandria (died about 45 C.E.).

The forerunners and leaders of the Renaissance and the Reformation (fourteenth-fifteenth centuries), and especially Martin Luther and William Tyndale (sixteenth century), made use of Latin translations of the classic Jewish commentators Rashi, Ibn Ezra, and Kimhi (eleventh-thirteenth centuries), whose works were imbued with the direct knowledge of the Targums. Luther was greatly indebted to Nicholas of Lyre (1270–1349), who had adopted Rashi’s exegesis for his Latin Bible commentary. Rashi’s influence on all authorized and most unofficial English translations of the Hebrew Bible becomes evident when Tyndale’s dependence on Luther is considered.

Tyndale is central to many subsequent English translations: the King James Version of 1611, the (British) Revised Version of 1881–1885, the American Standard Version of 1901, and especially the Revised Standard Version of 1952. Alongside the close, literal method of Bible translation, the earliest Jewish translators were also influenced by the widely held view that, along with the Written Law (torah she-biktav), God had given Moses on Mount Sinai an Oral Law (torah she-be‘al peh) as well; so that to comprehend God’s Torah fully and correctly, it was essential to make use of both. Thus, when a translation of the Hebrew Bible into the Judeo-Arabic vernacular was deemed necessary for Jewry in Moslem countries toward the end of the first millennium, the noted philologian, philosopher, and community leader Saadia Gaon (882–942) produced a version that incorporated traditional Jewish interpretation but was not based on word-for-word translation; at the same time, it was a model of clarity and stylistic elegance.

The present version is in the spirit of Saadia. With the growth of Christianity in the first century, the Church adopted the Septuagint as its Bible, and the Septuagint was translated into the languages of the various Christian communities. As Greek began to give way to Latin in the Roman Empire, it was only a matter of time before a Latin translation of Scripture became the recognized Bible of the Church. The Church father Jerome (c. 340–420) produced the official Latin version. Drawing on Jewish tradition and consulting Jewish teachers, he achieved what came to be known as the Vulgate, the Bible in the language of the common people.

The Vulgate, the Bible of European Christianity until the Reformation, is clearly the most significant Bible translation after the Septuagint. With the rise of Protestantism in Europe, scholars within this movement set themselves the task of making the Bible available in the various vernaculars of the time. By 1526 the first parts of two notable translations began to appear: Martin Luther’s in German and William Tyndale’s in English. The latter, by way of several subsequent revisions, became the King James Version of 1611. The more modern English versions—such as The Holy Scriptures by the American rabbi Isaac Leeser (1855), the (British) Revised Version (1881–1885), the American Standard Version (1901), the Jewish Publication Society’s The Holy Scriptures (1917), and the (American) Revised Standard Version (1952)—made extensive use of the King James.

On the Making of the New Translation After World War II, when the Jewish Publication Society began to consider a new edition of the Bible, the idea of a modest revision of the 1917 translation met with resistance, and the concept of a completely new translation gradually took hold. The proposed translation would reproduce the Hebrew idiomatically and reflect contemporary scholarship, thus laying emphasis upon intelligibility and correctness. It would make critical use of the early rabbinic and medieval Jewish commentators, grammarians, and philologians and would rely on the traditional Hebrew text, avoiding emendations. The need for this new translation was the focus of the Jewish Publication Society’s annual meeting in 1953. Later that year the Society announced its intention to proceed with the project, and in 1955 the committee of translators began their task."

Last edited by Amanah; 10-26-2022 at 04:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-26-2022, 07:08 AM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood too


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,122
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
I just found this in the JPS (Jewish Publication Society) bible introduction:

"On the History of Bible Translation

Bible translation began about 2,200 years ago, in the third century B.C.E., as the large Jewish population of Alexandria, Egypt, came under the influence of Hellenism. When the Greek language replaced Hebrew and Aramaic as their vernacular, and the Torah in its Hebrew original was no longer commonly understood, a translation into Greek was made for the Jewish community of Alexandria. This translation came to be known as the Septuagint, Latin for “seventy,” because of the legend that the committee of translators numbered seventy-two, six elders from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

In the last few centuries B.C.E., the Jews who lived to the north and east of Judea also found the Hebrew Bible difficult to understand, for their spoken language had become largely Aramaic. Translations into Aramaic, first of the Torah and then of the rest of the Bible, became known as the Targums. The Septuagint and the Targums are not only the oldest translations of the Bible but also the most influential. Down to our own day, virtually every Christian translation has followed the methods of the Jewish translators who created the Septuagint, and generally followed their renderings of the Hebrew as well. The Christian translators also were influenced by the interpretation of the Hebrew text set forth in the Targums (much of it in oral form at the time) and by the writings of the Jewish philosopher-interpreter Philo of Alexandria (died about 45 C.E.).

The forerunners and leaders of the Renaissance and the Reformation (fourteenth-fifteenth centuries), and especially Martin Luther and William Tyndale (sixteenth century), made use of Latin translations of the classic Jewish commentators Rashi, Ibn Ezra, and Kimhi (eleventh-thirteenth centuries), whose works were imbued with the direct knowledge of the Targums. Luther was greatly indebted to Nicholas of Lyre (1270–1349), who had adopted Rashi’s exegesis for his Latin Bible commentary. Rashi’s influence on all authorized and most unofficial English translations of the Hebrew Bible becomes evident when Tyndale’s dependence on Luther is considered.

Tyndale is central to many subsequent English translations: the King James Version of 1611, the (British) Revised Version of 1881–1885, the American Standard Version of 1901, and especially the Revised Standard Version of 1952. Alongside the close, literal method of Bible translation, the earliest Jewish translators were also influenced by the widely held view that, along with the Written Law (torah she-biktav), God had given Moses on Mount Sinai an Oral Law (torah she-be‘al peh) as well; so that to comprehend God’s Torah fully and correctly, it was essential to make use of both. Thus, when a translation of the Hebrew Bible into the Judeo-Arabic vernacular was deemed necessary for Jewry in Moslem countries toward the end of the first millennium, the noted philologian, philosopher, and community leader Saadia Gaon (882–942) produced a version that incorporated traditional Jewish interpretation but was not based on word-for-word translation; at the same time, it was a model of clarity and stylistic elegance.

The present version is in the spirit of Saadia. With the growth of Christianity in the first century, the Church adopted the Septuagint as its Bible, and the Septuagint was translated into the languages of the various Christian communities. As Greek began to give way to Latin in the Roman Empire, it was only a matter of time before a Latin translation of Scripture became the recognized Bible of the Church. The Church father Jerome (c. 340–420) produced the official Latin version. Drawing on Jewish tradition and consulting Jewish teachers, he achieved what came to be known as the Vulgate, the Bible in the language of the common people.

The Vulgate, the Bible of European Christianity until the Reformation, is clearly the most significant Bible translation after the Septuagint. With the rise of Protestantism in Europe, scholars within this movement set themselves the task of making the Bible available in the various vernaculars of the time. By 1526 the first parts of two notable translations began to appear: Martin Luther’s in German and William Tyndale’s in English. The latter, by way of several subsequent revisions, became the King James Version of 1611. The more modern English versions—such as The Holy Scriptures by the American rabbi Isaac Leeser (1855), the (British) Revised Version (1881–1885), the American Standard Version (1901), the Jewish Publication Society’s The Holy Scriptures (1917), and the (American) Revised Standard Version (1952)—made extensive use of the King James.

On the Making of the New Translation After World War II, when the Jewish Publication Society began to consider a new edition of the Bible, the idea of a modest revision of the 1917 translation met with resistance, and the concept of a completely new translation gradually took hold. The proposed translation would reproduce the Hebrew idiomatically and reflect contemporary scholarship, thus laying emphasis upon intelligibility and correctness. It would make critical use of the early rabbinic and medieval Jewish commentators, grammarians, and philologians and would rely on the traditional Hebrew text, avoiding emendations. The need for this new translation was the focus of the Jewish Publication Society’s annual meeting in 1953. Later that year the Society announced its intention to proceed with the project, and in 1955 the committee of translators began their task."
Thank you for posting this sister,

Amazing how Christians turn to Rabbinical understanding in an attempt to find truth for themselves.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-28-2022, 07:26 PM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood too


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,122
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
  #38  
Old 10-28-2022, 11:12 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Unvaxxed Pureblood


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,009
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Worth every minute. Thank you for posting this!
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - https://ia800502.us.archive.org/3/it...surrection.pdf

Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-01-2022, 10:30 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 2,014
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Yeah, that was pretty good.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-08-2022, 07:30 PM
votivesoul's Avatar
votivesoul votivesoul is offline
Administrator


 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 5,440
Re: Dead Sea Scroll translation

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
I found this very interesting from Wikipedia.

Attachment 6655

I got this translation of the DSS: https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Sea-Scro.../dp/0060600640

I'm using it to compare text as I study the OT books. I appreciate the LXX but prefer to have Hebrew texts instead. I'm very glad the DSS came to light.

What are you thoughts?
I have that tome. I've used it over the years. It's a worthy addition to any believer's library.
__________________
For anyone devoted to His fear:

http://votivesoul.wordpress.com/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bible Translation Timothy Barber The Welcome Mat 7 01-20-2016 07:00 AM
Which translation do you use and why? amh Fellowship Hall 30 04-12-2015 06:54 PM
Dead Birds. Dead Fish. Conspiracy of Coincidence? Hoovie Fellowship Hall 111 01-10-2011 08:49 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.