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Old 01-14-2022, 07:50 PM
shag shag is offline
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Pool of Bethesda

John 5:4


Anyone looked into this deeper?

First one in got healed?
How long had that been happening?
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Old 01-15-2022, 07:33 AM
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

Is t that a footnote in the original manuscripts?
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Old 01-15-2022, 06:12 PM
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
John 5:4


Anyone looked into this deeper?

First one in got healed?
How long had that been happening?
It doesn't say how long it had been going on.

John sure seems to focus a lot on the subject of "water", though.
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Old 01-15-2022, 06:14 PM
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Is t that a footnote in the original manuscripts?
No. It is wanting in some copies, present in others. But verse 3 and verse 7 make no sense without verse 4.
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Old 01-15-2022, 06:41 PM
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
No. It is wanting in some copies, present in others. But verse 3 and verse 7 make no sense without verse 4.
Is he stating real events, or what people believed to have taken place (real healings).
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Old 01-15-2022, 10:39 PM
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

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Originally Posted by diakonos View Post
Is he stating real events, or what people believed to have taken place (real healings).
John 5:1-9 KJV
After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. [2] Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. [3] In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. [4] For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. [5] And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. [6] When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? [7] The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. [8] Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. [9] And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

I see no reason to think John was relating a superstition. If nobody ever got healed there, there likely wouldn't have been a crowd waiting there for the waters to be agitated.
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Old 01-18-2022, 02:32 AM
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

A supposition for your consideration:

In John 5:8, when Jesus tells the man to "Get up", the Greek is emphatic:

Ἔγειρε - Egeire

This verb means to arise, to awaken:

https://biblehub.com/greek/1453.htm

But here's the thing. The verb, in John 5:8, is written in the Present Active Imperative.

It is a command. Not an invitation. Not a suggestion.

Then look what Jesus says to the man:

“See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” (John 5:14, ESV).

The statement "Sin no more" is also Present Active Imperative. Again, a command, not in invitation. Not a suggestion.

The question one might ask is, what is the "worse" that might happen to the man if he continued in sin?

Another question to ask, related to the first is, in what way was the man's sins causing his prior condition?

I know many do not believe that their health problems might be a result of their moral transgressions against the Law of God. But that is certainly the case here.

And, what, then, might the man's sin have been?

The man was apparently paralyzed in some manner. When Jesus asks the man if he would like to be healed, how does the man respond?

With a complaint:

“Sir, I have no one to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, and while I am going another steps down before me.”

He doesn't answer "Yes, I would like to be healed". He whines. He is inviting Jesus to pity him as much as he pities himself.

Many have thought the "worse" thing that might come upon the man would be his future judgment if he didn't stop sinning. And that of course, is true.

But I submit that isn't what Jesus was talking about. I think what Jesus was talking about had a more immediate concern, something related to the man's health.

Ask yourself the following:

With the Son of God on the scene by the time John 5 happens, with Jesus already performing a number of miracles, why would God send an angel into a pool of water to heal someone?

And note: this angel only heals the very first person who gets into the water. There isn't a massive healing of the multitudes, like Jesus performed, it's a race to the finish line, a competition to get your healing before someone else gets in before you.

Does that sound like the work of a righteous God?

To me, it does not. It is not uncommon to understand that in the New Testament writings, the word angel was used as something of a catch-all term, due to the same word featuring so prevalently in the LXX, even when used to describe spirits or heavenly beings in general.

The supposition is therefore, as follows:

What if the "angel" that went into the waters, to stir them up, was not from God, not a holy angel in the truest sense, but rather was a renegade spirit of some form?

This spirit, causing and leading people into sin through temptation, then begins to afflict them, and then "heals" them when they enter the water?

It's not much different say, than tobacco companies advertising and marketing their poison to as large an audience as possible, benefitting financially off of all the death and disease their products cause, then, having the audacity to manufacture patches and gums and other stop smoking products, and selling the cure directly back to the people they helped make sick.

It seems to me, but I am not certain, that Jesus saved that man from something that man had no idea he was trying to get himself into.

Go and sin no more, so that something worse wouldn't come upon him then means, you will find yourself paralyzed and pathetic again and Jesus won't be there to heal him, and he'll end up back at the pool and eventually someone will pity him enough to get him into the water, and he will be "miraculously" cured by the spirit. God will receive no glory. No one will look to Jesus as their healer.

It's the promise of the famous revivalist who is going to do the miraculous for all the sick and injured, but in reality, dude is a snake. He'll blow on them and wave a coat at them and whatever other nonsense (why he might even drop-kick them in the face!) and people will claim their healing and all that, but it won't be from God.

Many people have undiagnosable, non-descript, syndromes of some sort or the other, that have no cure, many of which are psycho-somatic in origin, or are brought on by the unrighteousness of their lifestyle. People who are perpetually sick or are disabled in some way can get pretty desperate. They might try anything. Woman with the issue of blood comes to mind. How many people took her for a ride?

I knew a man back when I was in college, who was paralyzed from the chest down. Had a government paid for electric wheelchair, had a full-time caretaker. Said he had MS. But he told me his doctor told him he had no identifiable disease.

MS is easily discovered through a fMRI. The lesions on the brain can be seen, even without training, so how come his doctor couldn't diagnose him? But the man was most certainly paralyzed. What the truth of the matter was, I cannot say for sure. But it is entirely possible his own state of mind created his disease. The placebo effect works in this way. And it can go to an extreme, even an extreme opposite, called the nocebo effect.

So, imagine Jesus comes to you, but you don't even know who He is, and He asks you if you want to be healed, and you dodge the question and make a complaint about your situation, and in no uncertain terms, Jesus tells you "GET UP!"

I cannot prove, only suppose the possibility that the Lord broke through the man's unfortunate state of mind and released him from his psychosomatic illness and his propensity to pity-party himself into paralysis so he didn't have to take any personal responsibility for his own life and being.

Something an "angel" in a pool of water would never be able to do.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 01-18-2022 at 02:43 AM.
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  #8  
Old 01-18-2022, 05:23 AM
shag shag is offline
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

Lots of questions and ponderings…



A great multitude of impotent folk, blind, halt, withered gathered there…
Jesus could’ve healed as many of that multitude as He wanted, but healed only the one guy (w a 38 year infirmity).

Would He say, the one was all that was needed, to direct everyone’s attention away from that pool, to Him?


Im betting no one was healed in the pool after that.
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2022, 06:52 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is offline
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
A supposition for your consideration:

Does that sound like the work of a righteous God?

The supposition is therefore, as follows:

What if the "angel" that went into the waters, to stir them up, was not from God, not a holy angel in the truest sense, but rather was a renegade spirit of some form?

This spirit, causing and leading people into sin through temptation, then begins to afflict them, and then "heals" them when they enter the water?



It seems to me, but I am not certain, that Jesus saved that man from something that man had no idea he was trying to get himself into.

Go and sin no more, so that something worse wouldn't come upon him then means, you will find yourself paralyzed and pathetic again and Jesus won't be there to heal him, and he'll end up back at the pool and eventually someone will pity him enough to get him into the water, and he will be "miraculously" cured by the spirit. God will receive no glory. No one will look to Jesus as their healer.
That is an interesting thought. Yet, I just want to add to this in a way to have both sides of the argument revealed.

First, the writings of John say it was an angel. In the case that it was another spirit that claimed to heal and never did, one would have to believe the Bible would say so. Otherwise, you go down the road of "what else is it not saying"?

Second,

[I] John 5:4
For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had./I]

It doesn't say healed, rather made whole. Bring made "whole" is more significant than just being healed.

Luke 17:14
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.


Ten lepers were healed, yet only one was made whole.

And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

When the Bible uses certain words I believe they have a greater impact on the lesson. When that one person entered the waters as it was being troubled I believe like the Bible says, that they were made whole, not healed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
people have undiagnosable, non-decripted syndromes of some sort or the other, that have no cure, many of which are psycho-somatic in origin, or are brought on by the unrighteousness of their lifestyle. People who are perpetually sick or are disabled in some way can get pretty desperate. They might try anything. Woman with the issue of blood comes to mind. How many people took her for a ride?

I knew a man back when I was in college, who was paralyzed from the chest down. Had a government paid for electric wheelchair, had a full-time caretaker. Said he had MS. But he told me his doctor told him he had no identifiable disease.

MS is easily discovered through a fMRI. The lesions on the brain can be seen, even without training, so how come his doctor couldn't diagnose him? But the man was most certainly paralyzed. What the truth of the matter was, I cannot say for sure. But it is entirely possible his own state of mind created his disease. The placebo effect works in this way. And it can go to an extreme, even an extreme opposite, called the nocebo effect.
Do you believe spirits can cause sickness and other alignments that may seem like "an health issue" but rather its a spiritual one?

Luke 13:11-16
And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?


This woman was in a paralyzed state for 18 years. Long time to be in such a state, imagine what it does to ones spirit? Yet, Jesus comes and gives us insight to what a spirit of infirmity is. It's a working of satan, and one that binds in fact. That spirit bound her for 18 years, medicine wasn't going to do it, it took the Lord loosing her from that spirit. In a sense she wasn't healed, she was delivered.

Mark 9:25
When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.


A spirit caused a man to be deaf and mute. And to this day that spirit still works in that fashion. A preacher was brought before a man that couldn't hear nor speak, he rebuke the spirit that caused this, and immediately he was able to hear and talk.

We can try to cure these "diseases" in todays methods and have no results.

A man called me up one time a couple years ago from another state, and had major seizures, he said his pastor didn't believe him that it was a spiritual attack, yet prayed for healing, and healing never came. This man was about 50 years old, and has had seizures since a child. I asked him what I felt from the Lord, "where you molested as a child" to which he said in astonishment, Yes. He told me no one knew about that, I told him that's where his seizures stemmed from, and from that root you now have branches in alcoholism, perversion, depression the list goes on. My point is this, we can pray for healing and without comforting the real issue, not just the surface wound you'll never get anywhere. The man eventually left the church, was driving an ATV on a farm at 50 MPH and had a seizure and crashed into a combine, he is now deceased without deliverance.

As the church we have discernment to understand what's needed in the life of an individual. I heard the analogy that the church is a hospital room, well we should start acting like the spiritual doctors we should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
, imagine Jesus comes to you, but you don't even know who He is, and He asks you if you want to be healed, and you dodge the question and make a complaint about your situation, and in no uncertain terms, Jesus tells you "GET UP!"

I cannot prove, only suppose the possibility that the Lord broke through the man's unfortunate state of mind and released him from his psychosomatic illness and his propensity to pity-party himself into paralysis so he didn't have to take any personal responsibility for his own life and being.

Something an "angel" in a pool of water would never be able to do.
Brother that is the state of so many believers right now. They don't even know the voice of God from that of their flesh or another spirit.
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Old 01-19-2022, 09:24 PM
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Re: Pool of Bethesda

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
That is an interesting thought. Yet, I just want to add to this in a way to have both sides of the argument revealed.

First, the writings of John say it was an angel. In the case that it was another spirit that claimed to heal and never did, one would have to believe the Bible would say so. Otherwise, you go down the road of "what else is it not saying"?
Not if you recognize the use of the word "angel" in the NT and LXX as a catch-call term for spirits in general.

Quote:
Second,

[I] John 5:4
For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had./I]

It doesn't say healed, rather made whole. Bring made "whole" is more significant than just being healed.

Luke 17:14
And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.


Ten lepers were healed, yet only one was made whole.

And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

When the Bible uses certain words I believe they have a greater impact on the lesson. When that one person entered the waters as it was being troubled I believe like the Bible says, that they were made whole, not healed.
There is no substantive difference between being healed and being made whole. It's merely semantics.

Quote:
Do you believe spirits can cause sickness and other alignments that may seem like "an health issue" but rather its a spiritual one?

Luke 13:11-16
And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.
14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?


This woman was in a paralyzed state for 18 years. Long time to be in such a state, imagine what it does to ones spirit? Yet, Jesus comes and gives us insight to what a spirit of infirmity is. It's a working of satan, and one that binds in fact. That spirit bound her for 18 years, medicine wasn't going to do it, it took the Lord loosing her from that spirit. In a sense she wasn't healed, she was delivered.

Mark 9:25
When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.


A spirit caused a man to be deaf and mute. And to this day that spirit still works in that fashion. A preacher was brought before a man that couldn't hear nor speak, he rebuke the spirit that caused this, and immediately he was able to hear and talk.

We can try to cure these "diseases" in todays methods and have no results.
Yes, I believe evil spirits can be the cause of sickness, disease, illness, injury, and syndrome. But not always. Each situation needs to be properly discerned on its own merits.
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