Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Not the same as 1 These 4 event. It says we meet Him in the clouds, not when He returns in the clouds, per Rev 1:7.

What I quoted in Matthew 24 proves you wrong. Paul got his eschatology from Christ. Paul is referring to Matthew 24 when Christ comes accompanied by the angels. Christ is actually teaching from Daniel, who describes the resurrection of the Just happening at this time, and Jesus describes the angels gathering the saints. Paul is not describing something Christ did not teach in Matthew 24.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Now read the above in the context of Christ's words in Matthew24.


36..“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

37..As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

38..For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

39..and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

40..Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41..Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42..“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

43..But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

44..So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.



Everything in these verses is a further explanation of "that day" referred to in verse 36. "That" is a pronoun, and every pronoun has an antecedent. . So what is the antecedent of "that day? What "day" was Christ referring to and describing in verses 36 -44. What "day" is going to catch men unaware?
The answer is found in verses 30-31....




This is the antecedent of "that day" described in verse 36, the day he comes in the clouds, accompanied by a host of angels, and not in secret. It catches men unaware because they were unbelievers who did not believe the prophecies and rationalized away all the signs around them. Also, they are caught unaware because by that time God had sent to them strong delusion that they should believe a lie and be damned because they loved not the truth , and instead had pleasure in unrighteousness.


So simple grammatical rules destroys the pre-trib delusion.

This is very good. I would add this also concerning THAT DAY.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This does not sound like a secret rapture either. Yet it is speaking of the gathering together of the children of light.

Note particularly the last two words in verse 10. THAT DAY.

Now with that in mind note just 2 verses later. 2 verses later.

2 Thess 2:1-4

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It could not be more clear. THAT DAY shall not come.......

What day? Obviously the gathering together in Chapter 1:7. Then he says THAT DAY will not come until the falling away and the man of sin coming on the scene.

So when we speak of THAT DAY we are referring to Jesus saying OF THAT DAY and hour knows no man....we know Paul was speaking of THAT DAY, same thing, same day, as Jesus was when he wrote the Thessalonian Church.

THAT DAY is the rapture of the saints AFTER THE TRIB.

[Esaias]

As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.

copy and paste much?

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother Villa.
1: The wrath spoken of is in the passage.
2: I saw your "Greek technique".
Dont try it on the church.
They will see it a mile away.

You must ask yourself:(1):

(1): Over whom will God's wrath fall: over the world or God's people?
Naturally NOT over God's people.
(1-A) are you saying God's wrath and great tribulation are two separate events?

(2): Here is my "Greek Technique":
___ (I'll skip the first two)

(c): We live in two realms: one is the spiritual realm; and the other, it's
the natural realm. __ The spiritual realm is manifest in the natural realm; and the
natural realm always attests to the spiritual realm. They are parallel and they
cannot contradict one another.
(d): We have two testaments: the Old Testament's primary function is mercy;
the NT's primary function is grace. __ We must be careful to interpret the OT
in the light of the NT; and NOT the NT in the light of the OT!
(e): All doctrine must be established by (1) content & context; (2) by the mouth
of two or three FAITHFUL witnesses within the scriptures; and the intention
must be given unto life.

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

copy and paste much?

That's all this thread has needed past page 2 or so.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



You must ask yourself:(1):

(1): Over whom will God's wrath fall: over the world or God's people?
Naturally NOT over God's people.
(1-A) are you saying God's wrath and great tribulation are two separate events?

(2): Here is my "Greek Technique":
___ (I'll skip the first two)

(c): We live in two realms: one is the spiritual realm; and the other, it's
the natural realm. __ The spiritual realm is manifest in the natural realm; and the
natural realm always attests to the spiritual realm. They are parallel and they
cannot contradict one another.
(d): We have two testaments: the Old Testament's primary function is mercy;
the NT's primary function is grace. __ We must be careful to interpret the OT
in the light of the NT; and NOT the NT in the light of the OT!
(e): All doctrine must be established by (1) content & context; (2) by the mouth
of two or three FAITHFUL witnesses within the scriptures; and the intention
must be given unto life.

Brother Villa

If Gods people are left here in the tribulation, then His wrath lands squarely on them also.

Also, chapter 6 says His wrath is during the great tribulation.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

What I quoted in Matthew 24 proves you wrong. Paul got his eschatology from Christ. Paul is referring to Matthew 24 when Christ comes accompanied by the angels. Christ is actually teaching from Daniel, who describes the resurrection of the Just happening at this time, and Jesus describes the angels gathering the saints. Paul is not describing something Christ did not teach in Matthew 24.

One taken and the other left is not the return of Christ.
It is the stealing of the righteous virgin in the night by the bridegroom in chapter 25.

[Sean]

Paul quoted Christ of Matt 24 in 1 Thes 4.

It is a perfect parallel of events.....

[Sean]

Paul speaks of a taking to heaven.....



14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Paul speaks of a thief....



5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.



Paul speaks of a drunk.......



4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.






Now Jesus speaks of a taking of a saint.....



40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



Then Jesus speaks of a thief.....


42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



Next, Jesus speaks of a drunk.....



48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;





This is not a scriptural coincidence, but Paul quoted the words of Jesus.....For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord....