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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #41  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:11 PM
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Re: We're the Temple

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Originally Posted by Ehud View Post
Bro. Esaias has pointed out that David hated the enemies of the Lord, but we are told to love our enemies. If love and hate are true antonyms, and those statements are to be taken literally and at face value, we would seem to have quite a conundrum. I’m certain it can be reconciled, but I’d be lying if I said I could explain it. That’s why I am asking you fine folks.
A few points, if I may:

1. I have found that the Bible often uses terms differently than the way common society does. Love and hate are such terms. People use love, for example, to mean essentially an emotional complacency or pleasure or attraction. While that is certainly one level of meaning, the Bible uses love in a much higher sense, involving choices, favor, actions, support, etc. The same is true of hate, and a host of other terms.

2. David said he hated the Lord's enemies, who hated God, who blasphemed God, etc. We are told to love our enemies. Our enemies seems to refer more to our personal enemies, our neighbors or coworkers etc who happen to not like us or have some personal problem with us. The Lord's enemies are something a bit different, more like organized antiGod syndicates of evil.

One can love one's personal enemies without giving aid and comfort to ISIS, for example, which would technically be treason. One can love one's enemies without voting for gay rights or pro abortion candidates, and while opposing those movements and the people within them.

3. Taking the Bible as a whole, I think a good summary of a proper Christian approach to all this is to oppose and refuse to show favor to those whom the Bible says not to (the sons of Belial, the workers of iniquity, etc) while showing favor to and supporting those whom the Bible says to do so (the brethren, parents, neighbors, etc). We should seek to do good to all men in the sense of not being partial to our friends while ignoring and despising the people in our life who have some kind of personal beef against us or who are just hard-to-like types of personalities. But at the same time we should oppose those who seek to promote evil, thieves, murderers, blasphemers, etc.

It has been said that love really is a conscious decision to favor someone or something, and hate is a conscious decision not to favor someone or something. So then it comes down to who and what we will favor and support, or disfavor and oppose.
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  #42  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:20 PM
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Re: We're the Temple

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
A few points, if I may:

1. I have found that the Bible often uses terms differently than the way common society does. Love and hate are such terms. People use love, for example, to mean essentially an emotional complacency or pleasure or attraction. While that is certainly one level of meaning, the Bible uses love in a much higher sense, involving choices, favor, actions, support, etc. The same is true of hate, and a host of other terms.

2. David said he hated the Lord's enemies, who hated God, who blasphemed God, etc. We are told to love our enemies. Our enemies seems to refer more to our personal enemies, our neighbors or coworkers etc who happen to not like us or have some personal problem with us. The Lord's enemies are something a bit different, more like organized antiGod syndicates of evil.

One can love one's personal enemies without giving aid and comfort to ISIS, for example, which would technically be treason. One can love one's enemies without voting for gay rights or pro abortion candidates, and while opposing those movements and the people within them.

3. Taking the Bible as a whole, I think a good summary of a proper Christian approach to all this is to oppose and refuse to show favor to those whom the Bible says not to (the sons of Belial, the workers of iniquity, etc) while showing favor to and supporting those whom the Bible says to do so (the brethren, parents, neighbors, etc). We should seek to do good to all men in the sense of not being partial to our friends while ignoring and despising the people in our life who have some kind of personal beef against us or who are just hard-to-like types of personalities. But at the same time we should oppose those who seek to promote evil, thieves, murderers, blasphemers, etc.

It has been said that love really is a conscious decision to favor someone or something, and hate is a conscious decision not to favor someone or something. So then it comes down to who and what we will favor and support, or disfavor and oppose.
Furthermore, it does appear, to me at least, there is some variableness involved, or relativity. Hating family in order to be a Christian disciple is not on the same level as hating the Lord's enemies, unless they become the Lord's enemies.

And hating the Lord's enemies doesn't mean no mercy and grace is possible if they repent.

But it does mean I refuse to give my money to a pro abortion group, and I fully support thr abolition and outlawing of abortion and those who perform them, but I am not allowed to refuse to help someone change a flat tire on their car even if they "hate" me because I don't mow my yard often enough for their liking, or even if they have an Obama sticker on their bumper.
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  #43  
Old 05-18-2019, 02:14 AM
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Re: We're the Temple

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Furthermore, it does appear, to me at least, there is some variableness involved, or relativity. Hating family in order to be a Christian disciple is not on the same level as hating the Lord's enemies, unless they become the Lord's enemies.

And hating the Lord's enemies doesn't mean no mercy and grace is possible if they repent.

But it does mean I refuse to give my money to a pro abortion group, and I fully support thr abolition and outlawing of abortion and those who perform them, but I am not allowed to refuse to help someone change a flat tire on their car even if they "hate" me because I don't mow my yard often enough for their liking, or even if they have an Obama sticker on their bumper.



Great...Ill just make a list to run down with random strangers.


"Hello. My name is Jediwill83 and I am here to show the love of God...but first...Are you a son of Beliel? Does your feet run to cause mischief? Are you...."


"Sir that'll be one two for 4 sausage mcmuffin with eggs...a large caramel frappe and two hashbrowns...does that complete your order?"


"Depends on whether or not you shed innocent blood Patrice! Answer the questions or Im going to Wendys!"
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  #44  
Old 05-18-2019, 11:25 PM
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Re: We're the Temple

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Originally Posted by jediwill83 View Post
Great...Ill just make a list to run down with random strangers.


"Hello. My name is Jediwill83 and I am here to show the love of God...but first...Are you a son of Beliel? Does your feet run to cause mischief? Are you...."


"Sir that'll be one two for 4 sausage mcmuffin with eggs...a large caramel frappe and two hashbrowns...does that complete your order?"


"Depends on whether or not you shed innocent blood Patrice! Answer the questions or Im going to Wendys!"
McDonald's is pure evil.

Wendy's is always the better choice.
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  #45  
Old 05-21-2019, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

Then when you say "God hates sin" it means He loves it "less". Whatever hate means, God "hates" all workers of iniquity and He "hates" the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, etc, with whatever meaning it is you are ascribing to the term "hate".
in not saying this is the case every time hate is used.
Quote:
No, it means we must choose God rather than family, if family is opposed to Christ. Hate, in this passage, is an example of hyperbole, rhetorical exagerration for the purpose of stressing an important contrast. Otherwise, we are to " hate the sin" in the same way we are to "hate" our family members. Do you hate sin the way you hate family, that is, do you "love it less than you love God"?

Since you are saying hate in Hebrew means "not what we call hate" in E glish, what then is the Hebrew term for the "hate" you seem to be arguing against?
again I was not referring to every instance of the word hate.
Quote:
You are saying that God doesn't hate anyone, yet the Bible plainly says He does. Whatever the solution to the seeming paradox, it doesn't consist in "God doesn't hate anyone".
You never answered my point. If Jesus died for sinners, due to love for them, and you claim God hates some, then he did not die for all sinners, just some.
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  #46  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:02 PM
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Re: We're the Temple

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post

You never answered my point. If Jesus died for sinners, due to love for them, and you claim God hates some, then he did not die for all sinners, just some.
Actually, I did answer that point. God hates all workers of iniquity, the Bible says so. Yet He He loves us and offers us pardon and salvation and a new life. The Bible says that, also.

So both statements are true. Does it appear paradoxical? Well, if we read the Bible using our modern conceptions, then yes it is paradoxical, even a contradiction.

But the facts remain: God hates all workers of iniquity, yet He loved us and saves us in spite of ourselves.
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  #47  
Old 05-26-2019, 02:26 AM
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Re: We're the Temple

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Ezekiel saw the river of life flowing from the temple of God, giving life wherever it went. Isaiah was inside the temple in his vision, and saw the glory of God ready to break from the throne and fill the earth. Zechariah saw Jerusalem, where the temple was, issue river of life. Joel saw the fountain from the house of God flow out. All of that is speaking of believers today. We are the temple of the Holy Ghost, And Jesus said out of our bellies shall flow rivers of living water. We carry the source within us of the Kingdom River of Life. LET IT FLOW!

Love those with whom you disagree, or whose lifestyles you can't accept. True love does not have to agree with all that a person does in order to love them. After all, Jesus loved us while we were yet sinners, so much so that he died for them! There's no greater love! God LOVES sinners, and HATES NO ONE.
Getting back to the original post...

This is good. We just need to understand what it means to "let the love of God flow through us to reach those around us" because the world has a very inaccurate concept of love, and many believers have the same erroneous view. We need a Biblical presentation of what this looks like in action.

Hint, hint...
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  #48  
Old 05-28-2019, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

Actually, I did answer that point. God hates all workers of iniquity, the Bible says so. Yet He He loves us and offers us pardon and salvation and a new life. The Bible says that, also.

So both statements are true. Does it appear paradoxical? Well, if we read the Bible using our modern conceptions, then yes it is paradoxical, even a contradiction.

But the facts remain: God hates all workers of iniquity, yet He loved us and saves us in spite of ourselves.
I can accept that. I didn't catch that from you before.
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  #49  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:00 PM
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What I was concerned with is the thought that God has no love for sinners.
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  #50  
Old 06-05-2019, 06:58 AM
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What do you think, Hometown Guy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
God hates all workers of iniquity, the Bible says so. Yet He He loves us and offers us pardon and salvation and a new life. The Bible says that, also.

So both statements are true. Does it appear paradoxical? Well, if we read the Bible using our modern conceptions, then yes it is paradoxical, even a contradiction.

But the facts remain: God hates all workers of iniquity, yet He loved us and saves us in spite of ourselves.
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