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  #21  
Old 06-12-2014, 10:24 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

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Originally Posted by anon5 View Post
I joined the mormon church for a very simple reason: I saw how they treated one another.
At the end of the day, "Love your neighbor..." is what matters; ones theology is irrelevant. They are termed a cult so that those with no confidence may feel a little better in their Lofty Positions, of course. Ntmy.
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  #22  
Old 06-12-2014, 10:59 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

I'm leery of the Mormon church. First, you have the book of Mormon. It proposes that ancient Israelites came to the continental United States in the distant past and that nations were formed and an entire religio-historical drama unfolded. However, I've not heard of any reliable data supporting the claim. With the Bible... we have the Dead Sea Scrolls and thousands of years of both Jewish and Christian commentary referencing the Scriptures and the events that are described. The book of Mormon seems to just float in space like a work of fiction.

Also, the Pearl of Great Price has some interesting teachings (like Kolob) that the Mormons no longer embrace. If they were a church founded in truth... why would they have to go back and renounce their early teachings?

Their history is scandalous. Early Mormons are notorious for promoting polygamy and even breaking up the homes of families when a Mormon desired another man's wife. This even led to Mormons being hunted, arrested, shot, and killed. The young age of many of the wives of early Mormons is also quite scandalous.

If I had ever found any reliable data backing up the claims in the book of Mormon, a sound explanation as to why various teachings were good enough for their founders, but not good enough today, I might be able to overlook some of the polygamy and child brides... seeing that those things can be considered cultural. If there was proof of the history recorded in the book of Mormon... I might consider them a "Christian" sect. But I've not been shown anything that I'd stake my soul on.
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  #23  
Old 06-12-2014, 11:12 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

As for Islam... I actually have gotten to know quite a few Muslims and they've impressed me with their conduct and beliefs. As with Christianity you have mainstream Christians and wacko fundamentalists. Most Muslims I know see these extremists as nothing but trouble. The Quran is often difficult to interpret without knowing the historical context of various statements. For example... a lot of people talk about the verse in the Quran wherein Mohammed (PBUH) orders that Jews and infidels be beheaded. The context of this verse was prior to the military engagement of Mohammed and his followers. The Jews and infidels in this verse aren't you and me... these were enemies who had persecuted early Muslims and posed a very real and present threat to their community. It was war.

There are verses in the OT of the Bible wherein the Israelites were ordered to slaughter the inhabitants of the promised land. Knowing the cultural context of these verses helps us understand these statements as they relate to the war that was being engaged in during their generation. The admonition to slaughter the pagan inhabitants doesn't extend to unbelievers today. If the Quran is understood in this manner... it begins to make much more sense and the beauty of the work begins to come to light.

As for Islamic philosophy and theological perspective... I've gained much respect for the Sufis. They strike me as being far more "spiritual" in their approach to Islam than the Sunnis and Shiites. Sufis often focus on a personal relationship with Allah and ecstatic spiritual experiences wherein Allah's presence is felt and ego is vanquished.

However, Islam does have teeth. Here is the danger as I see it... Within Islam, the faith is seen as a community that has a right to defend itself and advance it's cause with deadly force if peace is impossible. Therefore, depending upon circumstance... one could be faced with Muslims using lethal force. Islam doesn't value pacifism in the way Christianity does.

Last edited by Aquila; 06-12-2014 at 11:16 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-12-2014, 11:28 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

hmm...hard to rebut your treatise of Mormonism--as opposed to the present-day Mormons that i have met; which are few--and the one on Islam strikes me as accurate, from a certain perspective, and not from another. The Beginning of Surahs tells me that the Qur'an values pacifism--Those who think to justify violence with Islam are in fatal error--whereas many who would call themselves adherents may not. I see this as revealing of premises, which i think Holy Writ is designed for.

Perhaps WII might enlighten us further there.
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  #25  
Old 06-12-2014, 12:57 PM
anon5 anon5 is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazeep View Post
At the end of the day, "Love your neighbor..." is what matters; ones theology is irrelevant. They are termed a cult so that those with no confidence may feel a little better in their Lofty Positions, of course. Ntmy.
Well, like I said earlier, I joined because of how they treated one another. From what I saw, the love thy neighbor aspect could not have been more evident
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  #26  
Old 06-12-2014, 01:57 PM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

ya, i have noticed that myself. i think most Christians have lost their way--in the West, at least--and i have come to view what 'religion' someone ID's with as being pretty irrelevant.
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  #27  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:35 PM
anon5 anon5 is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
As for Islam... I actually have gotten to know quite a few Muslims and they've impressed me with their conduct and beliefs. As with Christianity you have mainstream Christians and wacko fundamentalists. Most Muslims I know see these extremists as nothing but trouble. The Quran is often difficult to interpret without knowing the historical context of various statements. For example... a lot of people talk about the verse in the Quran wherein Mohammed (PBUH) orders that Jews and infidels be beheaded. The context of this verse was prior to the military engagement of Mohammed and his followers. The Jews and infidels in this verse aren't you and me... these were enemies who had persecuted early Muslims and posed a very real and present threat to their community. It was war.

There are verses in the OT of the Bible wherein the Israelites were ordered to slaughter the inhabitants of the promised land. Knowing the cultural context of these verses helps us understand these statements as they relate to the war that was being engaged in during their generation. The admonition to slaughter the pagan inhabitants doesn't extend to unbelievers today. If the Quran is understood in this manner... it begins to make much more sense and the beauty of the work begins to come to light.

As for Islamic philosophy and theological perspective... I've gained much respect for the Sufis. They strike me as being far more "spiritual" in their approach to Islam than the Sunnis and Shiites. Sufis often focus on a personal relationship with Allah and ecstatic spiritual experiences wherein Allah's presence is felt and ego is vanquished.

However, Islam does have teeth. Here is the danger as I see it... Within Islam, the faith is seen as a community that has a right to defend itself and advance it's cause with deadly force if peace is impossible. Therefore, depending upon circumstance... one could be faced with Muslims using lethal force. Islam doesn't value pacifism in the way Christianity does.
Here's my grief with Islam and maybe you can help me come to terms with it: Islam has just
over one billion people. It was estimated a few yrs ago that only about ten percent of those are fanatics. I'm not too good at arithmetic, but that's STILL many millions who are more then willing to drop a backpack by a boy at a marathon, so he'll become red mist from the blast, shoot a little girl on a bus, or kidnap whole classrooms of girls, NOT just because they are random psychos, but specifically for their religion. No other religion still has this level of violence.
Also why do they riot like crazy over a video, or caricature of their prophet, but won't make a peep over stoning pregnant women, child brides as young as nine, or killing schoolgirls?

Finally, all the atrocities "Christedom" have committed are at least a few centuries old. This is 2014 yet millions of muslims still support/commit terrible atrocities, and still in the namr of Islam. It is SO passe and common its not even reported much anymore.
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  #28  
Old 06-13-2014, 07:10 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

That could not be further from the truth, wadr. All of your media is controlled, and by the largest arms dealers on the planet--your "Christian" leaders. And why do you call those Muslims, when Allah would clearly not claim them? Was Jim Jones a Christian? Was Hitler? Apparently. And "It is so passe and common its not even reported much anymore" is just comedy, sorry, to one who has been there. I feel safer in Egypt right now than i would in NYC...and i am exceedingly white. Yikes. We are deserving of everything coming, i am seeing...
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  #29  
Old 06-13-2014, 07:15 AM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

at the least, please see that Muslim fanatic is as oxymoronic as Hitler, Christian, and seek some middle ground in your news? RT or something. Anything. You have to know that your network news is complete fiction now, they aren't even hiding it. Jon Stewart has a weekly skit where he replays all the network news parrots saying exactly the same thing. Available on youtube. Peace.
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  #30  
Old 06-13-2014, 07:31 AM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: Do They Really Believe This?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shazeep View Post
That could not be further from the truth, wadr. All of your media is controlled, and by the largest arms dealers on the planet--your "Christian" leaders. And why do you call those Muslims, when Allah would clearly not claim them? Was Jim Jones a Christian? Was Hitler? Apparently. And "It is so passe and common its not even reported much anymore" is just comedy, sorry, to one who has been there. I feel safer in Egypt right now than i would in NYC...and i am exceedingly white. Yikes. We are deserving of everything coming, i am seeing...
Actually,if my memory serves me correctly, Jim Jones was, at one time, licensed in the state of Ohio with the UPCI. This was before he went to Cali and then to Guyana.

Just a little history..... LOL

Course, that does not make him a Christian.
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