Daniel's 70th week - Page 9

mfblume · #81 03-17-2019, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

The ONLY coming He spoke about that they understood was coming in destruction against Jerusalem,

They asked, in Matthew 24, about "when these things will be", "the end of the world", and "the sign of Thy coming". They did not, at that time, understand His dying and raising, but that doesn't preclude them from asking about His coming. Whatever concepts they may have had about His coming (whether it was strictly a judgment upon Jerusalem, or His coming into His kingdom/reign, or His coming to resurrect and judge all men, or any other thing they may have thought of, whether correctly or erroneously), would not mean they couldn't ask about any of them. It just means they wouldn't have been thinking in terms of Jesus coming after dying and raising.

It is also interesting they didn't ask "when are you coming", but "what will be the sign of your coming". Which could mean the sign presaged the coming, signaled the coming was taking place, or indicated the coming had taken place. In other words, the sign could occur before, during, or after the parousia (depends on how one understands both the question, and the answer).

Agreed. But if we read the gospels Jesus said nothing about a coming associated with resurrection and entrance into eternity, we realize the only coming they asked about was associated with what He did say about coming, which is judgment alone.

And as I showed, if we read Mark's and Luke's accounts of their question, the SIGN of his coming was the same SIGN when the temple would be destroyed.. when "things things," that He just referred to before their question, would take place.

Michael The Disciple · #82 03-17-2019, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. But if we read the gospels Jesus said nothing about a coming associated with resurrection and entrance into eternity, we realize the only coming they asked about was associated with what He did say about coming, which is judgment alone.

And as I showed, if we read Mark's and Luke's accounts of their question, the SIGN of his coming was the same SIGN when the temple would be destroyed.. when "things things," that He just referred to before their question, would take place.

This does not agree with Pauls doctrine of Christs coming.

Jesus in Matthew 24.29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note Jesus said he will COME and GATHER TOGETHER his elect.

Now note what Paul taught about this same thing.

2 Thess. 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Note it is the EXACT WORDING that Jesus used in Matt. 24.

Why?

Paul is simply teaching the 2nd coming as revealed in the Matt 24 discourse.

Is Paul writing about the saints entering eternity here?

ABSOLUTELY!

Simply go back a few verses to chapter 1:7 where he is introducing the topic.

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

So the context shows this IS written concerning concerning the gathering together of the saints INTO ETERNITY.

So Matt 24 is Pauls source for what he wrote to the Thessalonians.

Ehud · #83 03-17-2019, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Paul is simply teaching the 2nd coming as revealed in the Matt 24 discourse.

I understand they are similarly described, but why does using common language necessarily mean it is the same event being described?

Michael The Disciple · #84 03-17-2019, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ehud

I understand they are similarly described, but why does using common language necessarily mean it is the same event being described?

Think of it like this. When we want to prove the deity of Christ we go to Exodus 3 where God tells Moses I AM. Then we go to John 8 and find the exact wording where Jesus says 1 AM.

Then we may go to Isaiah 44 and find where YAH says I AM the first and the last. Then we go to Rev. 1:17 where Jesus says I AM the first and the last.

In doing this we are sure because of the EXACT wording that we have proved the deity of Christ.

So why would it be any different with this?

Jesus says he will COME and GATHER TOGETHER his elect in Matt. 24. Paul says to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2 they will find rest at THE COMING OF CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER to him.

The wording is EXACT.

Not to mention the context is the same. Jesus is telling us about the abomination of desolation. Paul is telling of the man of sin.

Jesus says he will gather together his elect. Paul says Jesus will gather together the saints. No difference between the two.

Ehud · #85 03-17-2019, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Think of it like this. When we want to prove the deity of Christ we go to Exodus 3 where God tells Moses I AM. Then we go to John 8 and find the exact wording where Jesus says 1 AM.

Then we may go to Isaiah 44 and find where YAH says I AM the first and the last. Then we go to Rev. 1:17 where Jesus says I AM the first and the last.

In doing this we are sure because of the EXACT wording that we have proved the deity of Christ.

So why would it be any different with this?

Jesus says he will COME and GATHER TOGETHER his elect in Matt. 24. Paul says to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2 they will find rest at THE COMING OF CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER to him.

The wording is EXACT.

Not to mention the context is the same. Jesus is telling us about the abomination of desolation. Paul is telling of the man of sin.

Jesus says he will gather together his elect. Paul says Jesus will gather together the saints. No difference between the two.

Thank you for the reply; much appreciated!

shag · #86 03-17-2019, 01:56 PM

Michael, do u have Luke 21:20 in the first century siege of Jerusalem, or still in our future?

Esaias · #87 03-17-2019, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. But if we read the gospels Jesus said nothing about a coming associated with resurrection and entrance into eternity, we realize the only coming they asked about was associated with what He did say about coming, which is judgment alone.

This does not follow. They weren't asking about when He would return after resurrecting, because they didn't have the concept in mind of His death and resurrection to begin with. But it does not follow from that fact that they couldn't be asking about what WE commonly think of as the second advent, or about some other type of coming.

Quote:

And as I showed, if we read Mark's and Luke's accounts of their question, the SIGN of his coming was the same SIGN when the temple would be destroyed.. when "things things," that He just referred to before their question, would take place.

I don't see where you actually showed this, from Mark and Luke?

But in any event, the comi g in judgment against Jerusalem is not the only coming He spoke of in the Gospels:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=50706

Evang.Benincasa · #88 03-17-2019, 03:20 PM

What did Jesus' words concerning not one stone remaining upon another mean to a first century Judean?

shag · #89 03-17-2019, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What did Jesus' words concerning not one stone remaining upon another mean to a first century Judean?

The same thing that was meant when he told them all these things will come upon their generation... Nothing?

Evang.Benincasa · #90 03-17-2019, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shag

The same thing that was meant when he told them all these things will come upon their generation... Nothing?

Sorry, but that isn’t what I was looking for.
What would one stone not being left upon another.
What was the belief concerning the temple of the nation’s God coming down in such manner? Pretty much in Christendom it isn’t discussed. But in ancient Judaism it’s another issue entirely.