What is man? Why are we like we are?

[inquisitiveguy]

*Not quite sure quite where to start discussion concerning this so I'll use a post of mine from elsewhere*

Job 7:17 - What is man that You should magnify him, and that You should set Your heart on him,
Psalms 8:4 - what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
Psalms 144:3 - O Jehovah, what is man that You know him; the son of man, that you esteem him?

At least in three verses here we find similar questions. Is this a question without an answer? Have you ever wondered what we are that in INFINITE God would care about we minuscule creatures.

We know what God is. HE is love (1 John 4) and that is why HE cares. But what is man? Whatever we are, there is a definite list out there that describes us perfectly as a race. Whatever that list is, it must perfectly describe the Son also since He is '100% human'.

In Hebrews 2:10 it says that everything was made for the Son. This includes what we call the human race - you and me included. So why was humanity made for the Son? In Genesis 2:18 God declares that it is not good for (a) man to be alone. This 'alone' has to refer to being with an equal since Adam already was with God (greater than Adam) and the animals (less than Adam).

Set aside your disbelief for a moment and consider a God that has parts. One of those parts could very well fit that 'definite list' mentioned above. As some of you know, I believe the Son to be a finite part of the INFINITE God (the Father). This is not a relationship between equals. Therefore, before time existed, the Son was 'alone'. This 'was' not good. Because of this, the Father (through the Son) made what we call now call humanity (for the Son). So the Son would have equals to be with.

So the answer to 'what is man?' is that our consciousnesses are made in the likeness of the Son. The Father cares about us because HE cares about HIS Son. We are so alike that HE has offered to adopt us and allow us to rule with HIS Son.
---------------------

I've never heard of an answer to this question 'what is man' and this also answers the 'why'... God could've made any type of being to worship HIM, why did HE make ones to the 'human' specification?

[A.W. Bowman]

Normally I do not engage in such discussions, but in your post you have hit upon several issues that deserve exploring, all centering on the question, What is man?

The that question is asked several times in the Bible, as you noted above, and references found in in Job 15:14, Ec 6:11, and echoed in Heb 2:6 where the writer describes the position of Jesus within the realm of creation. By extension, when we are allowed (invited) to sit with Jesus on His throne (share in His authority, as He shares the Father's throne and authority, see Rev 3-6 with emphases on verses Rev 3:21 & 5:6-13) we see an expended relationship between man and God being established.

However, at no time do we see in scripture the “reason why” God desired/needed man. So what does man have that God wants, desires or needs? What is there lacking in God that only man can provide and required God to make covenants (binding agreements in blood, from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Christ) to purchase? In searching through the scriptures, the one reoccurring theme is that God desired the hearts of men. Ex 25:2; 36:2, De 29:18, 1Sam 13:14; 16:7, Prov 16; 21:2, Isa 29:13, Jer 17:5, Acts 13:22, Ro 10:10, 1Pe 3:4, just to list a few such scriptures.

The one thing God lacked was the heart (love and worship) of an independent being. A being who would freely seek after an unbroken union with Him. A being who would willing set aside himself and all of his wants, needs and desires in order to establish and maintain a oneness unity with the creator of the universe (John 17:6-26) and also a willingness to establish a like unity with those of like heart.

I hope this helps a little.

PS

For those who might claim that if God has desires, wants or needs, that He must not have been complete and perfect within Himself, for if He has a need of anything external to Himself it would indicate a deficiency in His nature:

I submit that if God did not have these things He would be unable to know, understand, or meet the desires, wants, or needs of His creation, man. Further, this lack in His own character would indicate three deficiencies in His own nature and diminish His deity and make Him less than perfect (complete and whole).

Practical result: Man would not have been made in the image and likeness of God.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by inquisitiveguy

*Not quite sure quite where to start discussion concerning this so I'll use a post of mine from elsewhere*

Job 7:17 - What is man that You should magnify him, and that You should set Your heart on him,
Psalms 8:4 - what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
Psalms 144:3 - O Jehovah, what is man that You know him; the son of man, that you esteem him?

At least in three verses here we find similar questions. Is this a question without an answer? Have you ever wondered what we are that in INFINITE God would care about we minuscule creatures.

We know what God is. HE is love (1 John 4) and that is why HE cares. But what is man? Whatever we are, there is a definite list out there that describes us perfectly as a race. Whatever that list is, it must perfectly describe the Son also since He is '100% human'.

In Hebrews 2:10 it says that everything was made for the Son. This includes what we call the human race - you and me included. So why was humanity made for the Son? In Genesis 2:18 God declares that it is not good for (a) man to be alone. This 'alone' has to refer to being with an equal since Adam already was with God (greater than Adam) and the animals (less than Adam).

Set aside your disbelief for a moment and consider a God that has parts. One of those parts could very well fit that 'definite list' mentioned above. As some of you know, I believe the Son to be a finite part of the INFINITE God (the Father). This is not a relationship between equals. Therefore, before time existed, the Son was 'alone'. This 'was' not good. Because of this, the Father (through the Son) made what we call now call humanity (for the Son). So the Son would have equals to be with.

So the answer to 'what is man?' is that our consciousnesses are made in the likeness of the Son. The Father cares about us because HE cares about HIS Son. We are so alike that HE has offered to adopt us and allow us to rule with HIS Son.
---------------------

I've never heard of an answer to this question 'what is man' and this also answers the 'why'... God could've made any type of being to worship HIM, why did HE make ones to the 'human' specification?

************************************************** ****


Man is God's plan of taking a being and elevating them to a near God state at full redemption.

I believe that man through faith will reach a higher level of existence by having fallen and then following the road of faith to redemption.

Thus both faith and grace are needed for salvation to begin.

Faith by repentance and grace by acceptance.

Man in his perfect state of God's made creation was just that God's invented being.

But take this fallible and broken soul and pay a personal debt of Love, to die on the cross.

Then the Love between the sacrifice and the redeemed has a greater meaning for both the redeemed and the sacrifice.

Bringing man into a realm of the spirit and existance that only God has known to this point...

For without redemption no Angel will experience.

That is the reason no fallen Angel can ever be redeemed or forgiven of God or by God.

To redeem an Angel or forgive and Angel would lower the experience that God himself will experience when he brings man into his realm.

We often times sing and pray about the euphoria of being in the presence of God on the morning we stand in Glory with him.

But the one thing that God himself has resigned himself of is the first expressions and reactions of each and every man, woman or child that enters his presence in Glory after full redemption.

Christ himself did not experience in his humanity the awe of stepping from the temporal into the realm of this perfect life and spirit.

As Christ himself having been born of the Father and in him dwelled the fullness of the Godhead....

He had returned back to where he came from with a resurrected body.

Get ready God we will outshine any Angel or any thought that has entered into the mind of God.

The response of being in your presence from anyone of us humans individually and then collectively has not entered the mind of God.

God Almighty get ready to experience a level in the heavens that you have not yet experienced....

See you at that appointed day....

[Neck]

bump

[inquisitiveguy]

Hello HS,
Thank you for your response here.

So what does man have that God wants, desires or needs? What is there lacking in God that only man can provide and required God to make covenants (binding agreements in blood, from Adam to Abraham to Moses to Christ) to purchase? In searching through the scriptures, the one reoccurring theme is that God desired the hearts of men.

I would agree with 'want' and 'desires' but not so much 'needs' or 'lacks'. I would agree that God desires the hearts of men though - definitely. If HE didn't HE would save us.

The one thing God lacked was the heart (love and worship) of an independent being. A being who would freely seek after an unbroken union with Him. A being who would willing set aside himself and all of his wants, needs and desires in order to establish and maintain a oneness unity with the creator of the universe (John 17:6-26) and also a willingness to establish a like unity with those of like heart.

So your answer to 'what is man' seems to be an independent being to seeks unity with God. I'll accept that as an adequate response. Thank you.

What I was hoping for though is a critique of my thoughts that I presented. Your response doesn't cover the 'why are we like we are' portion of the thread. Theoritically HE could have created any type of sentient being to fellowship - why us humans? I'm wanting to get other people's thoughts concerning this to see if my main idea is in line completely with the Bible. If God has parts and one is a human consciousness, then that answers both questions rather well.

About your 'PS':

I submit that if God did not have these things He would be unable to know, understand, or meet the desires, wants, or needs of His creation, man. Further, this lack in His own character would indicate three deficiencies in His own nature and diminish His deity and make Him less than perfect (complete and whole).

I haven't thought about this until you brought it up but here are some quick thoughts. For a sentient being (God and everyone else) there are two basic categories: 'IS' and 'IS NOT'. Our 'needs' fall in the 'IS NOT' category. What we know of God is that HE IS. Just because HE IS doesn't mean that HE can't recognize what 'IS NOT'. So since HE can recognize 'IS NOT' - HE can recognize our needs even though HE doesn't actually have any HIMSELF.

At least that is my initial thought on that. It doesn't bother me either way since God is God.

If you could however look over my original thread and give me your thoughts on mine I would appreciate it.

God bless

[A.W. Bowman]

I will do as you requested. I will take a while to study it. I actually stayed away from directly addressing some of the points because of the danger of delving into speculation, supposition and imaginings.

As to the PS, a follow up statement: With God there is no “is” and “is not”. God is not only within His creation; He is also out side of it. That is, He is both finite and infinite which translates into that there is nothing that God did not first know, understand, incorporate and create – even evil (Isa 45:7) It is these kinds of issues that make it so impossible to get our minds around the who and what God truly is. Perhaps that is why God never demanded that we “understand” Him, His elements of composition, or His nature in order to receive our salvation? But the rather, "the just shall live by faith".

You do good. Excellent questions!

[A.W. Bowman]

At least in three verses here we find similar questions. Is this a question without an answer? Have you ever wondered what we are that in INFINITE God would care about we minuscule creatures.

We know what God is. HE is love (1 John 4) and that is why HE cares. But what is man? Whatever we are, there is a definite list out there that describes us perfectly as a race. Whatever that list is, it must perfectly describe the Son also since He is '100% human'.

Actually, there is no definite list out there that describes us. There in lies our first difficulty and impossible stumbling block. There are two scriptures that tell us that we really don’t know what constitutes man (mankind). Those scriptures are: Gen 5:1-2 and 9:6 which gives us the “man was made in both the image and the likeness of God”. We can discuss our ideas of what this means all day, but in the final analysis all we are left with is our “good ideas”

We cannot understand the mind of God or His ways – so I must be very godly – because no one understands me or my ways either! LOLOL Sorry!

Now, we do have a rather good list of some of God’s attributes and abilities. However, I submit that no one actually understands what those attributes and abilities really mean. See Ecclesiastes. Then what we are left with is “The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man.” Ec 12:13 [JPS] We are required to obey and trust God, not to understand Him!

The difficulty is that we begin to understand God a little as we begin to understand ourselves. That is why we are so often forced to express our concept of God in terms of human attributes (anthropomorphism). But, as we come to understand ourselves in all of our complexity, we begin to grasp the fundamentals of God and His nature.

When we begin to accept the idea of being made in the likeness and image of God, obscure meanings of scriptures such as Mt 28:19 and 1Th 5:23 start to make some sense. But what we are left with is that God created man in man’s image because that was the best (or most appropriate) image to reflect God’s own invisible image. Jesus was created in the image of man (the son of) and was the best manifestation of the invisible image God, and we are also created in that same image – but with fallen nature (fractured image) that is in the process of being restored. Yet, even the most base of humans have some capacity to create new and wondrous things and to look into the cosmos and ponder infinity (seeking after God’s likeness).

A final note on this part: If we desire to know more about the nature of God, look more closely at the nature and composition (attributes) of humans, without all of the garbage we pile on ourselves. That is, look at all of the good and the pure, etc. as listed in Php 4:8 and Jams 3:17-18. The failure of man is that he continues as described in James 4.

The next issue deals with “being alone”. That will require a Hebrew word study. I will attempt to address that by tomorrow.

Is this approach more to what you have in mind aor a response?

Shalom Aleichem

[inquisitiveguy]

Hello Neck,
Thank you for your reply.

Man is God's plan of taking a being and elevating them to a near God state at full redemption.

I can agree with that.

I believe that man through faith will reach a higher level of existence by having fallen and then following the road of faith to redemption. Thus both faith and grace are needed for salvation to begin. Faith by repentance and grace by acceptance. Man in his perfect state of God's made creation was just that God's invented being. But take this fallible and broken soul and pay a personal debt of Love, to die on the cross. Then the Love between the sacrifice and the redeemed has a greater meaning for both the redeemed and the sacrifice.

I see no fault in this reasoning...

Bringing man into a realm of the spirit and existance that only God has known to this point...
For without redemption no Angel will experience. That is the reason no fallen Angel can ever be redeemed or forgiven of God or by God. To redeem an Angel or forgive and Angel would lower the experience that God himself will experience when he brings man into his realm.

Here is where you start to lose me. Would you care to elaborate on this section?

We often times sing and pray about the euphoria of being in the presence of God on the morning we stand in Glory with him. But the one thing that God himself has resigned himself of is the first expressions and reactions of each and every man, woman or child that enters his presence in Glory after full redemption. Christ himself did not experience in his humanity the awe of stepping from the temporal into the realm of this perfect life and spirit. As Christ himself having been born of the Father and in him dwelled the fullness of the Godhead....
He had returned back to where he came from with a resurrected body. Get ready God we will outshine any Angel or any thought that has entered into the mind of God.

'resigned'? It seems like you're saying that God is going to be surprised? I agree that since Christ is naturally the Father's Son He probably wasn't shocked/surprised when He returned to heaven.

The response of being in your presence from anyone of us humans individually and then collectively has not entered the mind of God. God Almighty get ready to experience a level in the heavens that you have not yet experienced....

God hasn't experienced something? I thought God existed outside of time. HE created space-time. HE sees the whole of it and so nothing surprises HIM.

But that is just my thoughts.

Again thank you for your response. I was hoping people would critique my thoughts though. I'm searching for weaknesses in them. I'm seeking for places where they don't exactly line up with the Bible.

God bless

[inquisitiveguy]

Hello HS,

Actually, there is no definite list out there that describes us. There in lies our first difficulty and impossible stumbling block. There are two scriptures that tell us that we really don’t know what constitutes man (mankind). Those scriptures are: Gen 5:1-2 and 9:6 which gives us the “man was made in both the image and the likeness of God”. We can discuss our ideas of what this means all day, but in the final analysis all we are left with is our “good ideas”

I was more going for the general idea of us being human. I was tying that into that He who we call Christ is 100% human. Whatever we are He is.

We cannot understand the mind of God or His ways – so I must be very godly – because no one understands me or my ways either! LOLOL Sorry!

Funny

Now, we do have a rather good list of some of God’s attributes and abilities. However, I submit that no one actually understands what those attributes and abilities really mean. See Ecclesiastes. Then what we are left with is “The end of the matter, all having been heard: fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole man.” Ec 12:13 [JPS] We are required to obey and trust God, not to understand Him!

We don't understand completely true. That shouldn't keep us from trying though. I think it pleases HIM when we seek to understand HIM.

The difficulty is that we begin to understand God a little as we begin to understand ourselves. That is why we are so often forced to express our concept of God in terms of human attributes (anthropomorphism). But, as we come to understand ourselves in all of our complexity, we begin to grasp the fundamentals of God and His nature.

That's why I began to see God as having parts (not physical necessarily). We aren't forced so much as that is how God has chosen to express HIMSELF.

When we begin to accept the idea of being made in the likeness and image of God, obscure meanings of scriptures such as Mt 28:19 and 1Th 5:23 start to make some sense. But what we are left with is that God created man in man’s image because that was the best (or most appropriate) image to reflect God’s own invisible image. Jesus was created in the image of man (the son of) and was the best manifestation of the invisible image God, and we are also created in that same image – but with fallen nature (fractured image) that is in the process of being restored. Yet, even the most base of humans have some capacity to create new and wondrous things and to look into the cosmos and ponder infinity (seeking after God’s likeness).

I like the thought here. Circular reasoning is only a problem if you're stuck in the circle. God being outside the circle doesn't have that problem.

A final note on this part: If we desire to know more about the nature of God, look more closely at the nature and composition (attributes) of humans, without all of the garbage we pile on ourselves. That is, look at all of the good and the pure, etc. as listed in Php 4:8 and Jams 3:17-18. The failure of man is that he continues as described in James 4.

Good thought.

The next issue deals with “being alone”. That will require a Hebrew word study. I will attempt to address that by tomorrow.

I appreciate your time. This is farther than I've ever gotten.

Is this approach more to what you have in mind aor a response?

Yes. Much better.

God bless

[Neck]

Originally Posted by inquisitiveguy

Hello Neck,
Thank you for your reply.

I can agree with that.

I see no fault in this reasoning...

Here is where you start to lose me. Would you care to elaborate on this section?

'resigned'? It seems like you're saying that God is going to be surprised? I agree that since Christ is naturally the Father's Son He probably wasn't shocked/surprised when He returned to heaven.

God hasn't experienced something? I thought God existed outside of time. HE created space-time. HE sees the whole of it and so nothing surprises HIM.

But that is just my thoughts.

Again thank you for your response. I was hoping people would critique my thoughts though. I'm searching for weaknesses in them. I'm seeking for places where they don't exactly line up with the Bible.

God bless

I personally believe that the expression God has been looking for is not just the act of Faith that we believe in him.

Trust his grace and mercy and follow a recipe out of the books of Acts.

The ultimate experience of God himself being surpirsed by the act of supreme expression when Man reaches the city and place that John talks about in Revelations.

There is one thing that God has not experienced and that is just how much man will express himself to the God of All.........

I personally see the origin of faith also taking a leep of faith, in hoping that what he has prepared for us will be his and man's ultimate moment.

That to me is why there are things expressed as, The marriage supper of the Lamb. The church being expressed as the bride of Christ.....

No man or woman can fully understand how they will feel at the moment the minister says, I now introduce to you Mr and Mrs______.

It's not Eternity, it's not salvation. it's not the glory of the place we seek.

It is all about the relationship between God and Man.

That without being a made creation, a fallen soul, then a redeemer who is God himself wrapped perfectly into man.

We could not be made more perfect than being made, fallen and by faith and grace finding redemption.

That to me is the secret behind God's Eternal plan for man...