**** Are the NCO and AWCF "raiding" the UPCI or providing a "safety net"? ****

[Trouvere]

Sam went to ABI? when? Show pictures.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by rrford

I think anyone who has attended a BC feels theres was the most sound doctrinally. Goes with the territory.

For instance, we heard for years how ABI was not in support of the Gifts of the Spirit being at work in the church. Not saying that was true either...

Bro. Norris kept a tight rein on everything. That may be why it was said that they did not believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I don't remember much manifestation in Midway Tabernacle where he pastored and where we were required to go. We had to sign in at the church on Sunday morning and Thursday evenings. I don't remember having to sign in on Sunday night.

Bro. Norris took quite a lot of time teaching on "the holy, righteous, and wicked" showing us how folks would be in Heaven without the water and Spirit Baptisms. He also took quite a lot of time on the "oil doctrine" that was prevalent at that time. He was very emphatic that there never were more than 12 genuine apostles (Matthias was a "mistake") and that the office of prophet stopped in the first century. Maybe he thought it stopped with John the Baptist, I'm not sure any more --that was half a century ago. He was strong on a pre-trib rapture and he taught (if I remember correctly) that the antichrist would be an apostate Jew from the tribe of Dan. He had previously taught that Mussolini was the antichrist and had published a book or tract on it but Mussolini had been dead for a while when I went to ABI and so had Bro. Norris' teaching on that subject.

[chaotic_resolve]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I may have missed it . . . why was TF thrown out of the library? What was he finding that upset or scared Hall and the others to toss him out?

Originally Posted by EB

That's what you get to find out because it's not in Fudge's book.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

And why is this the first time I'm hearing about it???

Originally Posted by EB

You were never interested in before?

Never heard about this before . . . is that hard to comprehend? If I’ve never heard about something, chances are I wouldn't have the option of being interested or not.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

If the facts aren't being disputed by Hall and Norris . . .

Originally Posted by EB

Where did you find that information? Care to share?

This was stated by DA in one of his posts. Notice I DIDN’T say it as a matter of fact . . . I stated “IF.” You respond as though I’m relating it as fact.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

what's the argument about? He's said to have a well-documented Bibliography, which could be said for any research book.

Originally Posted by EB

How did I respond to that CR? I started this whole discussion by talking about attitude, and then about research. I also said when the FOOTNOTES (not Bibliography...yet) were brought up that one needs to check out those footnotes. Remember that I was speaking of examining the primary sources.

Yes, however you never mentioned once in all of your posts that one should give the same scrutiny to books put out by PPH, or articles from the Forward or Pentecostal Herald. You’re one-sidedly biased in who should receive scrutiny.

I'll retract that statement if you post that the same white-hot light of scrutiny and skepticism needs to be used on books published by PPH, and articles published in the Forward and Pentecostal Herald.

Odds are you won't.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Is it just that EB doesn't agree with the conclusions that he attacks the credibility and character of TF?

Originally Posted by EB

Is that what I said CR? Or is that how you chose to precieve my posts?
Thank you for the invalidation.

Uhm, for a person who’s blasting TF based on what you perceived in his book, I find it ironic that you’re not open to interpretation regarding your posts. You think TF had an anti-upc agenda in his book . . . I think you’ve attacked the credibility and character of TF in your posts. And I’m not the only one who’s stated such.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

That's what I'm getting from EB's posts. No real substance other than he doesn't like the book.

Originally Posted by EB

Well, there you have it folks the voice of discernment has spoken. Thank you sir, may I have another.

Again, show me something substantive as to why you don’t like the book. All you’ve listed is your distaste for his perceived anti-upc agenda. He’s got a Bibliography which lists the sources . . . yet you think he should FedEx originals of the sources to your front door. Do you demand this of all research books?

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I will say that according to what I've read, TF received his information from a lot of different sources. It's not as though he interviewed one embittered, ex-UPC person and used their comments as the basis of his book.

Originally Posted by EB

Agenda anyone? The magical conjuction allows you to see what's coming next. Thank you CR, for someone who has never read Fudge's book you sure know it's depth and construction.

Never stated such, don’t insinuate I have. And thus far I haven’t said much about the book other than what was posted here concerning the Bibliography.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I would agree that the book should be scrutinized; that the sources need be traced and not just accepted w/out question. In the same sense, I would hope EB places the same scrutiny on UPC-approved books and historical accounts written by UPC authors.

Originally Posted by EB

CR did you only read what would strengthen an argument because my posts are repeating that proper research is to scrutinize the subject that we are studying.

Yes, but only THIS book . . . the one you disagree with. You’ve never given the same litmus test to other books you agree with.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

It goes both ways. However, I doubt EB places the same litmus test on UPC-authored and approved books as he does on other non-UPC-authored books.

Originally Posted by EB

Thank you sir may I have another.

Nice way to avoid the statement. Instead of snide remarks, how about actually responding to the statement with substance.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I still wonder why the UPC Library was closed to TF. Seems they didn't want the scrutiny of someone who wouldn't white-wash or gloss the history over to make it UPC-friendly.

Originally Posted by EB

You see CR, the part about Elder Hall closing the door on Thomas Fudge is a fact, and that you can pick up Thomas Fudge's attitude is prevalent in his writings. You on the other hand are taking a speculative jab in which you have no proof.

Do you have any proof that I’m wrong? Yes, I’m speculating here . . . just as you’re speculating TF’s attitude. You seem to know his attitude by merely reading the book, I say I can speculate on the reasons why the library was closed to him.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Dumb. No one's even hinted this.

Originally Posted by EB

How about alluded to it.

No one’s alluded to the books infallibility either.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Every writer has an agenda. If not, why write a book? Seriously . . . what moron would write a book without thinking it through to the books conclusion. Without knowing what the purpose, or agenda, of the book was?

Originally Posted by EB

You're correct CR, but some preach a Christ of Contention and the other of Love. Not all agendas are seeking a fair view. So that's why I ask for further research into the matter. Study out the material, come up with the balanced conclusion.

What you really mean is, study out the material and come up with a conclusion that you could agree with. Any other conclusion should be scrutinized under your white-hot light of scrutiny.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Any books from other sources other than the Forward, the Pentecostal Herald and PPH? I think most would agree that these sources would be decidedly biased in their opinions and views and would not be a good source of critical reasoning or examinations into the history of the UPC. I guarantee you most of what's put out by HQ is done so with a positive spin, if nothing more than to "keep unity."

Originally Posted by EB

UPCI and Thomas Fudge are not the only ones who have ever written books on Pentecostalism.

And the dance continues . . . You should try out for the “So You Think You Can Dance” show. The way you sidestep statements you don’t want to address is amazing!

[QUOTEchaotic_resolve]No one is suggesting that TF's book is total truth or infallible;[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by EB

Although they have alluded to it.

No they haven’t.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

No one is even suggesting TF is right in his conclusions (re-read the posts - can't find it);

Originally Posted by EB

Although that has been alluded to.

Regardless if it’s been alluded to . . . are you suggesting that everyone should think or feel as you do about this book?

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

EB continues to question and belittle TF's character and writings - with no substantive reason other than he doesn't like TF's conclusions

Originally Posted by EB

I brought up Leo Tolstoy and how by learning about the writer I was able to get more understanding of his work.

Wow. You wrote a few sentences, congrats! Question . . . what do you know about TF? Other than what you’ve heard, since you discounted DA’s post about what he knew of TF.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

EB seems to take what's written by UPC-friendly authors without the "white-hot light of scrutiny" he demands for non-UPC-friendly authors.

Originally Posted by EB

So I guess someone can read for 30 minutes and come up with the wrong information? What you said is not true. Thank you for proving my point.

No, it’s not the wrong information. You’ve got several posts, unless you’ve since edited them, that keep demanding scrutiny for CWTC, yet for the books and articles you agree with you’ve placed no such demand. That can be verified by looking over your own posts.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Sam went to ABI? when? Show pictures.

I only went there one year -Sept 1956 to June 1957.

The closest picture to that would be my high school senior picture.

[Steve Epley]

AWCF could this be the binding of the tares????????????????///

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

AWCF could this be the binding of the tares????????????????///

I never thought of that.
I thought maybe the World Council of Churches could be.

[ChTatum]

Originally Posted by Sam

I never thought of that.
I thought maybe the World Council of Churches could be.

Or the AMF. Many extra-Biblical teachings there, from what we read here.

[Sam]

Is there a list available of all the organizations that come under the AWCF umbrella?
Maybe some of us are part of it and don't know it.

[SDG]

CR .... You Hit A Home run .... !!!

Pm Incoming!!!!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Would you care?

I care enough to learn about it and digest it .... do I have care enough to bow down and accept it as Gospel ... no.

Spill the beans, EB.