The reality of the slippery slope?

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So considering your own experience may be that of those who leave the Oneness movement a majority of them dont leave it to go and do crazy things. Maybe they also have doctrinal issues.

My situation is different than yours yet similar. I hold firmly to the Oneness message. I believe Acts 2:38 is the full standard for salvation in the New Covenant Church.

I disagree with most Oneness Churches on the rapture (myself being post trib), the resurrection of the dead, eternal judgement, and sinless perfection.

I disagree with their stand against beards and the doctrine that it is a sin for women to trim their hair.

These things have made it very difficult for me to tie myself to a Oneness Church. I think I ran through the best Trinitarian Churches available before I started into Oneness so it does not occur to me to ever be a member of one again.

Not saying I would never visit one.

Not sure on the others on what you believe but disagreeing with beards and pre/mid/post sure sounds like a silly reason to leave a church.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Not sure on the others on what you believe but disagreeing with beards and pre/mid/post sure sounds like a silly reason to leave a church.

Not to Mike that's the most important things to him. Acts 2:38 then Beards, and Post Trib Rapture.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Jason B

I joined AFF in 2007. I wasn't raised in the UPC and knew little of Christianity, much less oneness Pentecostalism prior to January of 2000. It's safe to say prior to 2007 I pretty much believed the oneness movement was monolithic, essentially all conservative, and that all OPs were "3 steppers". I knew exceptions existed, but I had little exposure to them. Anyway, as we know AFF, especially it's it's hey day was a melting pot for everything apostolic, or anyone with even the slightest connection to the movement at any time. Left, right, center, libs, conservative, ultra cons, apostates, agnostics, heretics, charismatics, charlatans, Muslims, athiests, bapticostals, etc all discussed here. Hundreds.
Over 11 years you kinda see how life unfolds, and with AFF, Facebook, and such these days you observe people's lives at a distance, wherein in the past all contact would be lost.

So here's the point. It is my observation that it seems many (most) people who have left the OP movement do in very fact make shipwreck of their faith. I'm constantly amazed by people who once stood strong for what we all believed was truth and holinessand just how far the other way they have swung. It honestly saddens me.

I say this as someone who has left myself. It breaks my heart to see all the Ex's embrace all manner of heresy, word faith charismatic, seeker, gay affirming, post modern and essentially every perversion of anything resembling even remotely sound Christian doctrine. I'm heart broken when I see people who used to live holiness look like Jan Crouch with vanity all over them. I'm heart broken when I see people who preached holiness and sensible doctrine follow the likes of Steven Furtick and Bill Johnson. I'm heart broken when I see folks strive for noteriety and do whatever is necessary to forward their ministry, their brand, their ego. People who loved God, who were good preachers. Saints who loved God, wholovrd the church, and prayer, and the people of God, and whose passion was revival. I can't believe the things I hear, read,and see. It breaks my heart the broken families. It breaks my heart that not only do they not go to an OP church, but rarely go at all, if they even believe in the most basic Christian gospel anymore.

In all honesty, this saddens me. Over and over. It's like I keep watching the same thing. And obviously I'm not saying that with a dog in the fight. I left in 2010 and have always remained in church. Pastored an independent Bible Church from 2014-2017. I've been vocal about some of my differences with OP doctrine here on this forum. But regardless of that, I hate to see people either turn away from Christ, or else claim to serve Him and yet just seemingly be the victim of a cycle of poor choices. Drugs, alcoholism, divorce, filled with hatred and cussing, life in bars and clubs. It's sad.

And honestly it happens with such frequency, I can see why old timers roll out the horror stories to make people scared of leaving.

This hasn't happened to me. And I wonder if it's because I wasn't raised in it. I converted at 18. I had no family or friends who were OPs. In fact I'm not sure I had any family or friends who attended any type of church regularly. I went from the world I to a UC UPC. And stayed 10 years, then left. And have basically been in conservative reformed Bible Churches since. A lot of similarties and obviously a few big differences.

So I wonder, why is it so many leave and just go totally bonkers? Even if it takes 5-10 years to get there, it seems they get there. Is that a by product of the OP culture and preaching? Is it because they left "the truth"? I believe it's the isolationist culture. But I'd like to hear others takes.

Regardless if the least, the end result is bad. It does make me wonder if these people who claim to have freedom wouldn't have been much better off staying their former course. I wonder how many would admit that, or think that but won't admit it. I wonder how has the internet affected this?

Maybe it's just me and sinceI don't have a history in the movement, I don't know, but it seems like in the last 15 years a mass exodus has taken place from conservative OPism. And even the UPC seems to have flipped from conservative to liberal leaning. It just seems like the ones who left, totally threw everything out. And the ones who stayed moved right to left and now mirror the larger Evangelical movement, rather than classical Pentecostal or holiness movements.

Just some random thoughts. We'll see where this goes.

Still holding on here.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Not to Mike that's the most important things to him. Acts 2:38 then Beards, and Post Trib Rapture.

Like I’ve told people... if you can’t shave it and that is your biggest gripe you deeper issues and you will conquer it when you shave it.

I’m the odd ball and all my friends are pre and I lean more post... not a heaven or hell issue so I ain’t worried about it.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Like I’ve told people... if you can’t shave it and that is your biggest gripe you deeper issues and you will conquer it when you shave it.

I’m the odd ball and all my friends are pre and I lean more post... not a heaven or hell issue so I ain’t worried about it.

I can agree on all points there. MTD believes it's a heaven or hell issue though. I just hope his interpretation isn't wrong.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Not sure on the others on what you believe but disagreeing with beards and pre/mid/post sure sounds like a silly reason to leave a church.

Well yes if truth doesnt matter it would be silly.

[aegsm76]

I too have friends who have left the UPC, due to what I would call "liberal leanings".
Some have gone off the deep end and others have stayed true to the basic Acts 2:38 message.
However, almost without fail, their children fall out of truth.
I do not see the UPC as becoming more liberal however, it seems to have stabilized after the loss of some to the WPF.
My vision may be somewhat skewed, as most of my UPC connections are in the South and Midwest.
But, I believe both orgs are doing fine!

[n david]

I've had close to a couple dozen personal friends leave oneness A/P churches over the years (almost all were UPC). Most left over standards issues -- dress/hair or tv. It's sad to see that with all of them, it hasn't ended there but they also no longer believe in the new birth salvation (repentance, baptism and infilling of the HG).

It seems there's a link between leaving over standards and not believing in the new birth salvation. I've thought about it a lot, because personally, I don't agree with the UPC on a few standards issues; however, one thing I have never wavered on is new birth salvation. It's disconcerting to me that all whom I know personally who left over standards have also stopped preaching the new birth and instead believe baptism is just a public display of commitment to Christ and that the HG is just some extra benefit available to those who are already saved.

Perhaps the thing which has kept me is that while I don't agree on some issues, I have continued to fellowship A/P churches and have not become friendly with churches who do not believe in new birth salvation. I simply refuse to attend or visit a church which doesn't believe the oneness or new birth salvation.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I too have friends who have left the UPC, due to what I would call "liberal leanings".
Some have gone off the deep end and others have stayed true to the basic Acts 2:38 message.
However, almost without fail, their children fall out of truth.
I do not see the UPC as becoming more liberal however, it seems to have stabilized after the loss of some to the WPF.
My vision may be somewhat skewed, as most of my UPC connections are in the South and Midwest.
But, I believe both orgs are doing fine!

Yes. Even if they hang on, the next generation doesn't tend to fare to well. This is a big concern of mine. Teaching my children. Tonight we had a little New Year's Bible study. The topic? Discussion of Johnathan Edwards resolutions from the 1720's. Excellent stuff.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

However, almost without fail, their children fall out of truth.

This is also a problem across the board, regardless of denomination. Church groups across western civilization are hemorrhaging at the seams, the kids hit 18 move out of the house and give up on church. Many give up on Christianity altogether. Many others give up on Churchianity.

Churches are increasingly being viewed as unnecessary and as not having anything worthwhile to offer.

Also, a lot of folks thought that Sunday School and one or two services per week was enough to save their children. It wasn't, isn't, and never will be. This has to be a daily thing, a continuous nonstop ongoing relationship with God, parents, and kids all involved.