Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

[Michael The Disciple]

Chosen

I think by using the term pre trib, mid trib, or post trib that we are going off the supposition that there is a term called “the great tribulation”. But since that term is not in the Bible that’s not even biblical language.

Thats funny, Jesus said:

Matt 24:15-22

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jesus was referencing the prophecy of Daniel the prophet.

Daniel 12:1

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

So yes the term and concept of the GREAT TRIBULATION of the time just before the coming of Jesus and the resurrection is sound Bible doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

The only problem I have with all of that is, this in Matthew 24 is spanning 2 ages and times in history at once.

But you get this pre supposition from mens theories not from Jesus. The proof is that when Paul teaches on the EXACT SAME THING in 2 Thess 2 he connects the falling away and the man of sin (abomination of desolation) into the same time frame.

Note the wording in Matthew 24 is the very same as 2 Thess 2:1-5

Matt 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In both contexts Jesus and Paul we see:

a. The coming of Jesus
b. Our Gathering together to him.

Paul is teaching Jesus words out of Matt. 24.

He does not split up Jesus words to cover several ages. He speaks of the time JUST BEFORE the coming of Christ. That is his reason for writing 2 Thess is to remind the saints that the coming of Jesus is NOT IMMINENT.

It will not be imminent until the 2 things he is describing taken from Matt. 24 happen.

A falling away and the man of sin being revealed.

[Michael The Disciple]

Now Jesus teaches of the imminent return more then anyone else. Just look at this passage from Luke 21:35-40 “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

This by no means prove your case. Why? What does Jesus mean when he speaks of WATCHING for his coming?

Luke 21:25-28


25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

How do we WATCH for the coming of Jesus? By watching THE SIGNS.

Jesus said when you see THESE THINGS come to pass lift up your heads.....for your REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH.

Until the signs happen the day of redemption is not imminent.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats funny, Jesus said:

Matt 24:15-22

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jesus was referencing the prophecy of Daniel the prophet.

Daniel 12:1

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

So yes the term and concept of the GREAT TRIBULATION of the time just before the coming of Jesus and the resurrection is sound Bible doctrine.

Mike what Jesus was speaking of in that passage happened 36 to 37 years later. That's not what you mean when you use the term "the great tribulation". And also that passge is to the Jews, there is no gentile verbage in the whole statement.

While honestly the passage could be talking about 70 A.D. and a future event because it definitely was referencing 70 A.D. because the Sabbath reference there is no gate to the city to be locked on the Sabbath in Jerusalem for almost 2000 years, it could be also spanning a future event I'll say that because of the last 2 verses. But it has no gentile verbage in any of it, and that doesn't deal with me and you.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

But you get this pre supposition from mens theories not from Jesus. The proof is that when Paul teaches on the EXACT SAME THING in 2 Thess 2 he connects the falling away and the man of sin (abomination of desolation) into the same time frame.

Note the wording in Matthew 24 is the very same as 2 Thess 2:1-5

Matt 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thess 2:1-5

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

In both contexts Jesus and Paul we see:

a. The coming of Jesus
b. Our Gathering together to him.

Paul is teaching Jesus words out of Matt. 24.

He does not split up Jesus words to cover several ages. He speaks of the time JUST BEFORE the coming of Christ. That is his reason for writing 2 Thess is to remind the saints that the coming of Jesus is NOT IMMINENT.

It will not be imminent until the 2 things he is describing taken from Matt. 24 happen.

A falling away and the man of sin being revealed.

Bro 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is talking about a past event it says "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ HAD COME". Mike I don't know when this was written but this was past tense even in the day of Paul. And verse 3 says "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." That whole line that says "that day shall not come" is in italics. What does that mean? Its a Interpretation which means it's added. So to build a doctrine off this one scripture when Paul is very clear in Chapter 4 and 5 of 1 Thessalonians of what shall happen is at best having tunnel vision.

The people that wrote this Bible had certain biases toward their Interpretation, sort of how you are reading it. Instead of looking at the text and forgetting all of that, and looking into it and saying what was the text saying to me.

Mike you said Paul "That is his reason for writing 2 Thess is to remind the saints that the coming of Jesus is NOT IMMINENT."

That's not what it was it was written to let them know "it hadn't already come, that it hadn't happened yet."

[Amanah]

Chosen, do you agree that the bible is saying the rapture will not take place until the man of sin is revealed?

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This by no means prove your case. Why? What does Jesus mean when he speaks of WATCHING for his coming?

Luke 21:25-28


25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

How do we WATCH for the coming of Jesus? By watching THE SIGNS.

Jesus said when you see THESE THINGS come to pass lift up your heads.....for your REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH.

Until the signs happen the day of redemption is not imminent.

What about the Parable of the ten virgins, The Sodom reference, the Noah reference so many more? "If the day cometh that no man can work", and they continue on in marriage and marrying until the Coming of the Lord, and 2 are grinding in a mill and one is taken and the other left then that sounds like work to me! Bro and what Jesus is saying in Luke 21 many of those things happened and in no way is He telling them a time table. Hes only telling them what will take place What's being said by verse 28 is "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." He's saying when things like this come to pass (importantly verse 10-24) don't lose heart all these things will come to pass.

And verse 25-26 I've seen in my lifetime and some even daily "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [26] Men's hearts failing them for p fear, and for q looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Chosen, do you agree that the bible is saying the rapture will not take place until the man of sin is revealed?

I mean I guess so? But at the same time who's even sure what that means. The man of sin couldve already been revealed. I can think of many candidates I mean Nero, Constantine, The Papalcy in itself fits some of that to me. And if you go through Catholic Church history there was a time where they led the whole world.

I mean to say that hasn't happened or even that the book of Revelation takes place in Chronological order I think is presupposition. I mean take Chapter 12:3-4 for instance verse 3 and 4 up to the colon took place between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 is the way I see it.

So I would agree wholeheartedly there but the presupposition that there is A term called the great Tribulation and that the rapture happens in pre post or mid I don't agree there. I mean what about Revelation 7 he still hasn't answered that. And the reason why is it can't be answered. Not and make sense with the rest of his claims.

I'm not saying my understanding is perfect but what I get from it is all I'm speaking of. There will be a coming of the Lord it is imminent closer then ever before watch and pray for at a hour when you least expect it the son of man cometh! So we should keep our lamps trimmed and full of oil, and I didn't get this from myself Jesus said so. That was the biggest part of His teaching on Eschatology, while he did give insight he didn't go into great detail.

I means this is the greatest doctrine to MTD, he drives a 150 miles round trip (maybe that's wrong, but pretty far) to go to a church that teaches post trib. So I know he is set in his understanding. I just see this as the whole of Eschatology I can wrap my mind around for sure, and I'm a 100 % sure that this isn't wrong. It's written out plain and simple for everyone to understand. While these Bible Writers did foreshadow things to come, the common thread in all of it is what I'm trying to relate. And belief that isn't built on that Jesus is soon to come, is going to cause people to be lost. Not MTD specifically, but many will be because of it. It relates to people "oh we still have time to sort all of this out, so I'll be ok." All I can say "if it's good enough for the Apostles it's good enough for me!"

[Michael The Disciple]

Chosen

Then Peter and Paul both use this same verbage in their epistles. Just look at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” Then we see Peter say in 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” While what Peter and Paul are referencing are the day of the Lord, which is a different event altogether then the Coming of the Lord.

When Paul wrote of the day of the Lord it was referring to the coming of the Lord.

1 Thess. 5:1-4

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The day of the Lord refers to the day HE COMES as a thief. Right?

If you read back just 2 VERSES from verse 2 where Paul mentions the "day of the Lord"......then we find the context of COMING OF THE LORD.

1 Thess 4:15-18

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul by no means separated the coming of the Lord and the day of the Lord into two things! He's obviously writing about the same event. There is only one verse between the two thoughts.

As to Peters writing.

Did he believe the coming of the Lord was distinct from the day of the Lord?

2 Peter 3:3-4

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?

Verse 4 the apostle mentions HIS COMING. That is in reference to his coming for his people in context. Scoffers would be mocking that he would return.

Verse10

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

If Jesus is COMING like a thief in the night it must be that his coming is the same thing as the DAY OF THE LORD.

Peter saw the two as THE SAME DAY. Same as Paul.

The context in what Peter writes is obviously in a post...meaning AFTER the tribulation setting.

Peter affirms the "day of the Lord" is post tribulation in Acts 2:20

Acts 2:20

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

So the day of the Lord comes like a thief when he comes for the saints.

From Peters teaching we can say "Let no one deceive you by any means, for that day (of the Lord) shall NOT COME until the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood.

At that time.....the coming of the Lord will be imminent!

Peter says the day of the Lord happens AFTER the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood.

[Amanah]

Good points!

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I mean I guess so? But at the same time who's even sure what that means. The man of sin couldve already been revealed. I can think of many candidates I mean Nero, Constantine, The Papalcy in itself fits some of that to me. And if you go through Catholic Church history there was a time where they led the whole world.