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  #551  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:50 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
And I wonder if Raffi and MfBlume could summarize their Sabbath stances in relatively short declarations. A short statement that would include their covenant understandings, how you see certain verses like Isaiah 66:23, how sabbath interlinks with the sacrificial system, whether the blood of Messiah needed to land on the mercy seat for the change of covenant.

That being said, let me ask about one verse.

Luke 23:56 (AV)
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


Luke wrote this c. 41 AD I believe (you may be later) to the most excellent high priest Theophilus (YMMV-yourmileagemayvary.)

Note the present tense.
Do you believe there was an implied (former) or (at that time) in the verse?

according to the (former) commandment
according to the (at that time) commandment

And, if there was a change of the sabbath, when did it occur?
The blood of Jesus had been shed at the time of the spices, and had (I believe) landed on the mercy seat. So was there a commandment at that time? Allowing that you have placed (at that time) into the sentence.

Thanks!

Steven
I find it interesting that Luke, and the rest of the NT writers, continue to refer to the seventh day as "the Sabbath", and even continued marking events chronologically according to references to various Feasts of the Lord. It always struck me that if they had the mindset professed by many today, the NT writers would not have written that way. Non Sabbathkeepers do not ordinarily refer to the last day of the week as "the Sabbath" nor do they use the moedim as reference points for simple calendrical purposes. This, to me, is a strong indication they (the NT writers) were still keeping Sabbath and the Feasts when they wrote.
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  #552  
Old 11-15-2017, 09:52 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
And I wonder if Raffi and MfBlume could summarize their Sabbath stances in relatively short declarations. A short statement that would include their covenant understandings, how you see certain verses like Isaiah 66:23, how sabbath interlinks with the sacrificial system, whether the blood of Messiah needed to land on the mercy seat for the change of covenant.

That being said, let me ask about one verse.

Luke 23:56 (AV)
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


Luke wrote this c. 41 AD I believe (you may be later) to the most excellent high priest Theophilus (YMMV-yourmileagemayvary.)

Note the present tense.
Do you believe there was an implied (former) or (at that time) in the verse?

according to the (former) commandment
according to the (at that time) commandment

And, if there was a change of the sabbath, when did it occur?
The blood of Jesus had been shed at the time of the spices, and had (I believe) landed on the mercy seat. So was there a commandment at that time? Allowing that you have placed (at that time) into the sentence.

Thanks!

Steven
Will do when time permits. Will be interesting.
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  #553  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:35 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
how you see certain verses like Isaiah 66:23,
This is speaking about all nations coming to Jerusalem. That is physically impossible so it is not literally true.

We have to interpret the Old by the New. The New Testament says sabbaths are a shadow of things to come, and the body they are shadows of is Christ. As a shadow is a vague representation of the body that casts it, the shadows are vague impressions of Christ. Since this was written in the time of shadows, and the shadows are cast by the body of Christ, then it is using the elements of shadows and not actually Christ. So we translate that into New Testament fulfillments and realize it is speaking about worship that is consistent.

Quote:
how sabbath interlinks with the sacrificial system, whether the blood of Messiah needed to land on the mercy seat for the change of covenant.
I do not get what you are asking. The TRUE mercy seat is in heaven, and the blood of Jesus was indeed sprinkled in a spiritual manner. Not physical blood, but because blood indicates death, the risen Christ went into the holiest of heaven itself to make atonement. This was not an earthly holiest or mercyseat. Death paid the price, which blood on the mercyseat prefigured.

Quote:
That being said, let me ask about one verse.

Luke 23:56 (AV)
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.


Luke wrote this c. 41 AD I believe (you may be later) to the most excellent high priest Theophilus (YMMV-yourmileagemayvary.)

Note the present tense.
Do you believe there was an implied (former) or (at that time) in the verse?

according to the (former) commandment
according to the (at that time) commandment
Luke spoke in reference to the then-in-effect law which was done away at the cross.

For those who think Luke's reference to the seventh day by calling it a sabbath meant Luke believed in sabbath-keeping when he wrote that decades after the cross, let me say that logic fails. Luke also wrote of the TEMPLE. We know the true temple is the church and body of Christ, and even our personal bodies. So, did Luke not believe the church was temple because he referred to the temple in Jerusalem as the "temple"? Of course not.

Quote:
And, if there was a change of the sabbath, when did it occur?
There was no change of sabbaths. Jesus is the true sabbath of which the day was a shadow. Sabbath was not changed to Sunday. Sunday has nothing to do with sabbath.


Quote:
The blood of Jesus had been shed at the time of the spices, and had (I believe) landed on the mercy seat. So was there a commandment at that time? Allowing that you have placed (at that time) into the sentence.

Thanks!

Steven
I do not know what you are asking in that last paragraph, and the words in brackets and the format of your sentence is confusing. Especially the last sentence.
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  #554  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:04 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Luke spoke in reference to the then-in-effect law which was done away at the cross.
The events took place after the cross, and after the burial.

And Luke's writing was way after Pentecost.

Presumably the Holy Spirit inspired Luke.
If the sabbath law had been done away with at the time of spices, why did Luke write of the commandment?

Steven
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  #555  
Old 11-17-2017, 04:17 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
The events took place after the cross, and after the burial.

And Luke's writing was way after Pentecost.

Presumably the Holy Spirit inspired Luke.
If the sabbath law had been done away with at the time of spices, why did Luke write of the commandment?

Steven
Sorry, I missed your point.

They did many things ritualistically by the law until they learned of the truth of the matter through Paul's ministry decades later. The cross actually did away with the keeping of a day, like Paul explained in Gal 4. The Spirit led them into all truth including understanding that Jesus fulfilled the shadow of the sabbath as time went on.

Technically, though, atonement was not made until after the resurrection.
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.

"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."

Last edited by mfblume; 11-17-2017 at 04:25 AM.
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  #556  
Old 11-17-2017, 08:16 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Luke 23:56 (AV)
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Keep in mind thought that Luke, by the Holy Spirit, did not say that this was:

"thinking of the former commandment"

Luke actually wrote:

"according to the commandment"

This looks clearly to be saying, by the Holy Spirit, that there was in fact the sabbath commandment after the crucifixion, at least. (If not up to the time of the Gospel account in 41 AD.)

I realize that this seems impossible if the sabbath commandment was subject to:

Quote:
the cross actually did away with the keeping of a day

the then-in-effect law which was done away at the cross.
However, we have to follow the scripture first, wherever it leads.

================

Your attempted Temple analogy is clearly non-functional, it has nothing to do with a commandment, so I did not bother quoting it, as I want to stick with the basic substance.

Steven Avery
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  #557  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:44 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Luke 23:56 (AV)
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Keep in mind thought that Luke, by the Holy Spirit, did not say that this was:

"thinking of the former commandment"

Luke actually wrote:

"according to the commandment"

This looks clearly to be saying, by the Holy Spirit, that there was in fact the sabbath commandment after the crucifixion, at least. (If not up to the time of the Gospel account in 41 AD.)

I realize that this seems impossible if the sabbath commandment was subject to:
If people believed they still had to keep sabbath, then a record of them doing so would indicate they did it according to the commandment. They would do it for no other reason.

It's like saying people offered sacrifices in the temple after the cross according to the law, but that does not mean we're supposed to do so..

That reference to the sabbath is simply not enough to say that meant we are intended to keep it today.

I heard Esaias' explanation of Col 2:16-17, which I feel is extremely in error. But what do you do with that passage. It clearly says sabbath was a shadow of the body, who cast the shadow, namely Christ.
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  #558  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:53 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
That reference to the sabbath is simply not enough to say that meant we are intended to keep it today.
It is an extremely strong reference, rather simple and straightforward. It is always interesting to see how a person tries to make it inoperative. e.g. In one discussion I was offered the idea of progressive revelation.

Thanks you for your sharing! I may come back to this, Col 2:16 and other points.

Steven
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  #559  
Old 11-17-2017, 10:43 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

I have read sporadically through this thread and did a little searching and found that the Council of Laodica (about 363–364 AD) outlawed Sabbath keeping. So, the Catholic Church outlawed it. Which of course means that there were Christians still observing it.

The major concerns of the Council involved regulating the conduct of church members. The Council expressed its decrees in the form of written rules or canons. Among the sixty canons decreed, several aimed at:
  • Maintaining order among bishops, clerics and laypeople (canons 3–5, 11–13, 21–27, 40–44, 56–57)
  • Enforcing modest behaviour of clerics and laypeople (4, 27, 30, 36, 53–55)
  • Regulating approach to heretics (canons 6–10, 31–34, 37), Jews (canons 16, 37–38) and pagans (canon 39)
  • Outlawing the keeping of the sabbath (Saturday) and encouraging rest on the Sunday (canon 29)
  • Outlining liturgical practices (canons 14–20, 21–23, 25, 28, 58–59)
  • Restrictions during Lent (canons 45, 49–52)
  • Admission and instruction of catechumens and neophytes (canons 45–48)
  • Specifying a Biblical canon (canons 59–60)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea

Last edited by Amanah; 11-17-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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  #560  
Old 11-17-2017, 10:52 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-re...ade-the-change
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