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  #71  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:56 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

I guess there are no real pretribbers here on AFF willing to defend their doctrine?

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  #72  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:08 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jediwill83 View Post
dude...Ive never heard or thought of it like that.
Options for the Man of Sin:

1. Jews rebuild a temple. Global political and/or religious leader performs miraculous signs, enters the temple, and announces to the world via CNN or Twitter that he is the Supreme Being all humans have been worshipping. The world loves it and throws a parade.

Problem: A rebuilt Jewish temple could not be "the temple OF GOD." The NT teaches that the church is the temple of God.

Problem: He would have nowhere to "sit" unless he brought in a chair?

Problem: The vast majority of earth's population would NEVER submit to some world dictator ruling from a JEWISH temple. No Muslim would. No Eastern Orthodox would. Most Roman Catholics would reject him. These alone cover over 2/3rds of the world population. Only hokey dispensationalists and some hyper Orthodox Jews would believe it, and the dispensationalists would all be wondering where the rapture went. Half of Jewry opposes any attempt to rebuild a Temple anyway. Its just not workable.

2. The pope.

Problem: The pope rules the RCC (in name only, he's not actually in charge of anything, that would be the cardinals and Old Roman nobility). The RCC is not the temple of God.

3. Unknown Jew in the 60s AD.

Problem: Huh?

4. Clericalism itself.

Problem: None, it fits ALL data points about "the man of sin".

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  #73  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:54 PM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

It makes sense because God wanted a prophet not an organization to rule over his people, but they rejected Samuel and insisted on having a King like the surrounding nations (1 Samuel 8). Even so, Jesus came to sit on the throne of David, and to be the King of Kings, but 300 years afterward, Constantine made the church an extension of his empire. And still today we have division and conflict because men want to be lord's over God heritage (1 Peter 5:3)
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  #74  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:08 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
It makes sense because God wanted a prophet not an organization to rule over his people, but they rejected Samuel and insisted on having a King like the surrounding nations (1 Samuel 8). Even so, Jesus came to sit on the throne of David, and to be the King of Kings, but 300 years afterward, Constantine made the church an extension of his empire. And still today we have division and conflict because men want to be lord's over God heritage (1 Peter 5:3)
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  #75  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:18 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Like I said, the Scriptures do not SAY what pre tribbers claim. Verse 17 says nothing about "lukewarm left behinders".

Everybody claims the Bible "means" what they think it means. The question as always is "But what does the Bible SAY?"
Actually,
Rev 12:5 SAYS her seed was caught up to God

Rev 12:17 SAYS "the dragon warred with the REMNANT of her seed"

So there you go, two categories of saints. One group caught up in the rapture, the other group is persecuted by the dragon.

Also, it's interesting that you're condemning pre-trib vehemently, yet you have not displayed the same ire towards post-trib.

Look at Michael the Disciple's (MTD) post. He believes the "man of sin" a.k.a antichrist is a literal human being while you believe it's clericalism.

Won't you condemn him as well since he is teaching heresy according to your belief???
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Last edited by TGBTG; 11-14-2017 at 07:21 PM.
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  #76  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:45 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
Actually,
Rev 12:5 SAYS her seed was caught up to God
Actually, no it doesn't.

Revelation 12:5 KJV And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Quote:
Also, it's interesting that you're condemning pre-trib vehemently, yet you have not displayed the same ire towards post-trib.
This is a thread about pre trib rapture doctrine being heretical. It is not a thread about post trib doctrine being heretical. (And by "post trib", pretty much anything that is not pre or mid trib or pre wrath is "post trib", whether futurist, historicist, or preterist, or idealist.) Pre trib doctrine is heretical false doctrine because it literally declares as true the EXACT OPPOSITE from what the Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS.

The opening post proves it. The apostle declared that the coming of the Lord Jesus and our gathering together with Him SHALL NOT COME UNTIL AFTER the falling away, the rise of the man of sin, the revealing of the man of sin, and the man of sin's entire career has completed, which career will end by his destruction, which destruction happens at the coming of the Lord - which according to the same passage is when our gathering together with Christ takes place.

Pre trib rapturism says the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him takes place BEFORE the rise of the man of sin, his revealing, and his career, and his destruction at the SECOND "Second Coming" of the Lord.

It is what it is.

Quote:
Look at Michael the Disciple's (MTD) post. He believes the "man of sin" a.k.a antichrist is a literal human being while you believe it's clericalism.

Won't you condemn him as well since he is teaching heresy according to your belief???
Heresy is not defined as that which is other than Esaias' belief. Heresy is that which is other than and contrary to the APOSTLES' TEACHINGS. The apostle did not IDENTIFY how the man of sin prophecy would be fulfilled. There are, therefore, various OPINIONS as to how that prophecy would be fulfilled. The OPINION I put forth, identifying the man of sin with the rise of clericalism, is the only one TO MY KNOWLEDGE that meets all the data points given in the prophecy. And as I pointed out, the common futurist OPINION as to a future man of sin does not match ALL the data points of the prophecy, hence I consider it to be erroneous.

But the MAIN POINT HERE is to notice that the apostle did not say "now here's how this prophecy shall be fulfilled". Therefore, it would be OUT OF PLACE to claim a person's OPINION on how a particular prophecy may be fulfilled in the future is "heretical", UNLESS that opinion directly contradicts the plain statements of Scripture.

Furthermore, HERESIES are usually taught as DOCTRINE, not opinions. Pre trib rapturism is ALWAYS taught as DOCTRINE, not as "hey, this is just my speculative opinion, I could be wrong because it doesn't really say one way or the other, blah blah blah." Pre trib rapture teaching is considered SOLID GOLD GOSPEL TRUTH right along with it's mother dispensationalism. Both of which are heresies that deny important fundamental doctrines OF THE BIBLE.

Obviously you believe that one's eschatology is irrelevant. Others believe differently.

Don't misunderstand me here. I'm not trying to be mean to anyone. I'm just telling it like it is. I would want others to tell me like it is. If *I* am in false doctrine, then lay it out and let er rip. All this milquetoast "let's not be too dogmatic about anything" is completely unbiblical.

EDIT: I went back and found brother Michael's post. All he did was post scripture. What is there to argue about? Looks like he is saying the man of sin is the abomination of desolation? I have no idea. If he wants to talk about it, I'm sure he will.

I'm considered a heretic as it is by the majority of professing Christians anyway because I don't acknowledge their God Squad.

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Last edited by Esaias; 11-14-2017 at 07:50 PM.
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  #77  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:06 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
I guess there are no real pretribbers here on AFF willing to defend their doctrine?

I can defend pretrib against misinterpreted scripture, but not against commentary.

Looking back, you are mostly commentary and critical of sensationalists.

Looking at wrong ideas of others does not make one right.....just another wrong to add to the heap.
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  #78  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:03 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
I can defend pretrib against misinterpreted scripture, but not against commentary.

Looking back, you are mostly commentary and critical of sensationalists.

Looking at wrong ideas of others does not make one right.....just another wrong to add to the heap.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 KJV (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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  #79  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:04 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.
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  #80  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:30 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 KJV (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Duh!

The rapture precedes the 2nd coming.

The rapture is not the 2nd coming.

Get it right.
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