Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Sean

We do not have the FULLNESS in us bodily, but we have the Holy Ghost, just like Jesus did in Luke 4:1.

We are not sinless, but declared sin free in Rom.6


The Lord is, to an extent, leveling the playing field for us and putting us on equal footing with him.

This should be addressed also.

Yes, there are "wordings" in Paul's writing which open up the possibility of man becoming "as God". This of course, I do not believe. I believe we have the quality of the Godhead within us, but not the complete quantity of God.

I would never want to put myself on an even level with Christ. Yet, it is passages like the one we are discussing that opens up this up.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Yes, I believe we have the fullness of the Spirit of the Father/Jesus in us. It just seems to make no sense why Paul would say that we are joint-heirs with Jesus. This seems to put us and Jesus on the same level, with God elevated on a different level.

An in depth study of soteriological theosis can shed a lot of light on why we are elevated to the same level as Jesus in Paul's writing and provide a biblical ontological framework for how this occurs. An ancient theologian once said, "God became a man... so that man could become God." God lowered Himself to dwell in a human vessel... so that He might elevate all human beings who come to Him... into Himself.

[KeptByTheWord]

There are certainly multiple other places where Paul lets us know that we are not equal to Christ, so I know that this is not what he was intending to say in this passage. Yet... this is one of those passages that Trinitarians and others can use against the oneness of God and Christ.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

There are certainly multiple other places where Paul lets us know that we are not equal to Christ, so I know that this is not what he was intending to say in this passage. Yet... this is one of those passages that Trinitarians and others can use against the oneness of God and Christ.

Yes Trinitarians always use passages of "distinction" to imply "separation" in order to justify their notion of God being three "separate persons".

But we have to not think in dichotomies. We have to think categorically. Categorically, one thing may be true... while another seemingly opposite reality is also true... at the same time. In this case... Jesus is a man. However, Jesus is also God.

As it relates to us and glorification... there is value in understanding the "now/not yet" paradigm. We are now living in union with Christ, and experiencing the divine nature as it relates to our "inner man", our "spirit", through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in our being. So this reality is "now". But... that's only our spirit. Our soul (psuche/mind) is "not yet" regenerated and must be renewed daily through prayer, meditation, and study. Nor have we experienced the regeneration of our bodies. This comes at the resurrection. So this is also, "not yet". Therefore... I can say that we are in union with Christ and partaking in the divine nature and experiencing being "sons of God" through the Holy Spirit in one sentence... and then draw distinction and illustrate how we are not yet what we shall be in another.

That's my understanding. I hope that helps.

[KeptByTheWord]

I think this perhaps explains what I understand so far:

I understand that our similarity with Christ is that we share humanity. Ours being imperfect, and His perfected, yet the humanity is what we share in common. And the divine nature of Christ, the spirit of the Father, dwells in our hearts as well, also unifying us. Yet, because his flesh was perfected, and ours is not, we will never attain the perfection that He attained until we die and our bodies are glorified.

Does this sound right?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I think this perhaps explains what I understand so far:

I understand that our similarity with Christ is that we share humanity. Ours being imperfect, and His perfected, yet the humanity is what we share in common. And the divine nature of Christ, the spirit of the Father, dwells in our hearts as well, also unifying us. Yet, because his flesh was perfected, and ours is not, we will never attain the perfection that He attained until we die and our bodies are glorified.

Does this sound right?

I can grok with that. I'd only change one thing. Christ's humanity wasn't "perfected" (possibly implying past imperfection). His humanity was absolutely "perfect" intrinsically... from conception.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes Trinitarians always use passages of "distinction" to imply "separation" in order to justify their notion of God being three "separate persons".

But we have to not think in dichotomies. We have to think categorically. Categorically, one thing may be true... while another seemingly opposite reality is also true... at the same time. In this case... Jesus is a man. However, Jesus is also God.

I agree that we cannot try to understand God in human terms. He dwells outside our human understanding and reasoning. I think Trinitarians want a humanistic God, one who they can break up into human elements and relationships, and understand. But God dwells in a place that is untouched by human relationships and understanding.

Originally Posted by Aquila

As it relates to us and glorification... there is value in understanding the "now/not yet" paradigm. We are now living in union with Christ, and experiencing the divine nature as it relates to our "inner man", our "spirit". So this reality is "now". But... that's only our spirit. Our soul (psuche/mind) is "not yet" regenerated. Nor has our bodies experienced regeneration. This comes at the resurrection, so it is also "not yet". So... I can say that we are in union with Christ and partaking in the divine nature and experiencing being "sons of God" in one sentence... and then draw distinction and illustrate how we are not yet what we shall be in another.

That's my understanding. I hope that helps.

Yes, I understand. But... I think we have to admit, the Apostle Paul does use terminology that certainly encourages the Trinitarian point of view at times.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I can grock with that. I'd only change one thing. Christ's humanity wasn't "perfected" (possibly implying past imperfection). His humanity was intrinsically and absolutely "perfect"... from conception.

Ok, yes.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I agree that we cannot try to understand God in human terms. He dwells outside our human understanding and reasoning. I think Trinitarians want a humanistic God, one who they can break up into human elements and relationships, and understand. But God dwells in a place that is untouched by human relationships and understanding.



Yes, I understand. But... I think we have to admit, the Apostle Paul does use terminology that certainly encourages the Trinitarian point of view at times.

When Paul draws any attention to a "distinction"... and it is mistaken for implying "separation", yes. I agree.

[Aquila]

If God were a box of ice cream... Trinitarians would define all statements and terms indicating distinction in ways to make Him a box of Neapolitan. Chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry... each perfectly assigned its nice little section in the box.

However, we understand God to be a box of chocolate and vanilla swirl. And can do without the tradition of the complimentary strawberry.