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  #191  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:26 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Paul speaks of a taking to heaven.....



14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Paul speaks of a thief....



5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.



Paul speaks of a drunk.......



4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.






Now Jesus speaks of a taking of a saint.....



40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



Then Jesus speaks of a thief.....


42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



Next, Jesus speaks of a drunk.....



48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;





This is not a scriptural coincidence, but Paul quoted the words of Jesus.....For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord....
Yes and Christ's words in Matthew 24 do not teach a pre-trib rapture and neither does Paul. The day that overtakes men as a thief is the day Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation, when he catches his saints in the air as his wrath is poured out...

Quote:
42..“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

43..But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

44..So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come (as described in verses 30-31) at an hour when you do not expect him.

No pre-trib secret rapture taught in Matthew 24. Do we need another grammar lesson in pronouns and antecedents?
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  #192  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:29 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Wanna know how long it took me to figure this out after someone at landmark preached the ones taken are taken to hell in Matt 24?

About an hour.

It is crazy that a minister could go 8 years to college and not notice that.

Presupposition is blindness.
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  #193  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:35 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
One taken and the other left is not the return of Christ.
It is the stealing of the righteous virgin in the night by the bridegroom in chapter 25.

Again, you completely ignore simple grammatical rules. In verses 30 and 31, he has already spoken of the day of his coming and he is exounding more on that day in verses 36-41....

Quote:
36..“But about that day (What day? The day of his coming as described in verses 30-31. Sean does not have a right to add a different event that there is no antecedent for in the prior verses) or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

37..As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (as described in verses 30-31).

38..For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

39..and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (verses 30-31).

40..Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41..Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
Just as the floods came and "took them all away" in the day of Noah, so also will his wrath come on the disobedient at his coming and they will be "taken", while the saints will be "left".

Flood- Sinners taken.

Second Coming- Sinners taken.

Last edited by Originalist; 11-19-2017 at 07:50 PM.
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  #194  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:45 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

So, that cancels out the following verses all the way into the bridegroom during the same discussion when the righteous were taken and the unrighteous left behind?

You would rather use a play on the word "take" and believe any righteous are taken anywhere?

You ignore the post I proved that Paul quoted Jesus on the "taking" of the saints?


Sinners taken and a few surviving saints left behind?

To what, a completely destroyed world at the end of the tribulation?

Go ahead, ignore the post Of Paul quoting Jesus, but remember, he and everyone else in the first century church understood my post content, before the "theologian" arrived.
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  #195  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:49 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
So, that cancels out the following verses all the way into the bridegroom during the same discussion when the righteous were taken and the unrighteous left behind?

You would rather use a play on the word "take" and believe any righteous are taken anywhere?

You ignore the post I proved that Paul quoted Jesus on the "taking" of the saints?


Sinners taken and a few surviving saints left behind?

To what, a completely destroyed world at the end of the tribulation?

Go ahead, ignore the post Of Paul quoting Jesus, but remember, he and everyone else in the first century church understood my post content, before the "theologian" arrived.
Nothing is ignored. Paul must be interpreted in light of the clear teachings of Christ, something you refuse to do in order to hold on to a false teaching. The grammatical rules of Matthew 24 are clear. Answer me please, where is this secret rapture in Matthew 24? Where are 2 separate comings listed there, Sean? Where? Where? Where?
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  #196  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:51 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
So, that cancels out the following verses all the way into the bridegroom during the same discussion when the righteous were taken and the unrighteous left behind?

You would rather use a play on the word "take" and believe any righteous are taken anywhere?

You ignore the post I proved that Paul quoted Jesus on the "taking" of the saints?


Sinners taken and a few surviving saints left behind?

To what, a completely destroyed world at the end of the tribulation?

Go ahead, ignore the post Of Paul quoting Jesus, but remember, he and everyone else in the first century church understood my post content, before the "theologian" arrived.

We can go around this mountain all night if you like. You cannot escape grammar. How many comings is Jesus taking about here?



Quote:
36..“But about that day (What day? The day of his coming as described in verses 30-31. Sean does not have a right to add a different event that there is no antecedent for in the prior verses) or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

37..As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (as described in verses 30-31).

38..For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

39..and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (verses 30-31).

40..Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41..Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
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  #197  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:56 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Paul speaks of a taking to heaven.....



14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Paul speaks of a thief....



5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.



Paul speaks of a drunk.......



4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.






Now Jesus speaks of a taking of a saint.....



40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



Then Jesus speaks of a thief.....


42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.



Next, Jesus speaks of a drunk.....



48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;





This is not a scriptural coincidence, but Paul quoted the words of Jesus.....For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord....

More righteous taken...



25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.



More righteous taken.....



16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.





37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken,




Everyone is taken...the flood takes the bad guys and the Ark(the Lord) takes the good guys.

Last edited by Sean; 11-19-2017 at 08:03 PM.
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  #198  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:08 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
More righteous taken...



25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.



More righteous taken.....



16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.





37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken,




Everyone is taken...the flood takes the bad guys and the Ark(the Lord) takes the good guys.

Are you completely blind and tone deaf?


Quote:
36..“But about that day (What day? The day of his coming as described in verses 30-31. Sean does not have a right to add a different event that there is no antecedent for in the prior verses) or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

37..As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (as described in verses 30-31).

38..For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

39..and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (verses 30-31).

40..Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41..Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

When does Jesus describe the coming happening Sean in verses 29-31? Comon, say it.

Last edited by Originalist; 11-19-2017 at 08:11 PM.
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  #199  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:09 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Lotsa bad guys get left behind, and the good guys taken away here.

Same exact conversation from chapter 24-25.
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  #200  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:18 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Lotsa bad guys get left behind, and the good guys taken away here.

Same exact conversation from chapter 24-25.


And around the mountain we go again...


Quote:
36..“But about that day (What day? The day of his coming as described in verses 30-31. Sean does not have a right to add a different event that there is no antecedent for in the prior verses) or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

37..As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (as described in verses 30-31).

38..For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;

39..and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man (verses 30-31).

40..Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

41..Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
In these verses above, Jesus repeatedly speaks of his coming.

When does Jesus describe the coming happening Sean in verses 29-31?

Yes, go look at verses 29-31 and tell us when the coming mentioned in verses 36-41, and in chapter 25 takes place.

This will not require a long diatribe on your part. In the KJV it will be just 7 words from verse 29.
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