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03-27-2010, 06:20 PM
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The Reformed Charismatic
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 444
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Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
I just received Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology in the mail yesterday.... Yeah!!!!
I ordered it from Amazon new for $25 plus S&H. I love that book!!
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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
Last edited by Orthodoxy; 03-27-2010 at 06:26 PM.
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03-27-2010, 06:35 PM
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Administrator
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Do you agree with his Calvinistic view of soteriology?
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"I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
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03-27-2010, 06:44 PM
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The Reformed Charismatic
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 444
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Do you agree with his Calvinistic view of soteriology?
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Yes I do, actually. I like the fact that he is Reformed and also believes in spiritual gifts for the Church today.
He's been classified before as a Reformed Charismatic Baptist, quite an unusual combination. I don't agree with every single thing in the book (Who does?), but overall the book is invaluable.
Note: The chapter that talks about the Trinity talks about Modalism and specifically mentions the United Pentecostal Church as a Modalistic organization.
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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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03-27-2010, 08:06 PM
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Honorary Admin
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
Posts: 6,287
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodoxy
Yes I do, actually. I like the fact that he is Reformed and also believes in spiritual gifts for the Church today.
He's been classified before as a Reformed Charismatic Baptist, quite an unusual combination. I don't agree with every single thing in the book (Who does?), but overall the book is invaluable.
Note: The chapter that talks about the Trinity talks about Modalism and specifically mentions the United Pentecostal Church as a Modalistic organization.
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So you believe in the doctrine of "election?"
What do you think about his words regarding the UPCI as to modalism?
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"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
Executive Servant http://www.newlife-church.org
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03-28-2010, 05:15 PM
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The Reformed Charismatic
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 444
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord
So you believe in the doctrine of "election?"
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If you define election this way (as Grudem does), then yes, I believe in the doctrine of election:
Election is an act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord
What do you think about his words regarding the UPCI as to modalism?
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There is no question in my mind that the UPCI is intentionally modalistic, and that bothers me very much.
How do you feel about it?
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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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03-28-2010, 05:39 PM
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Honorary Admin
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orthodoxy
If you define election this way (as Grudem does), then yes, I believe in the doctrine of election:
Election is an act of God before creation in which he chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure.
There is no question in my mind that the UPCI is intentionally modalistic, and that bothers me very much.
How do you feel about it?
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I think the doctrine of election is an affront to the very nature of a just God. But that's just my opinion.
Regarding modalism: There are some in the UPC who are extreme Jesus only's and that there are those who claim to be modalistic who really are not. I believe that "modalism" in it's pure form is probably more close to a correct definition of the Godhead than trinitarianism could ever be. Although, I probably do not subscribe to modalism, I think it definitely has its merits.
I, personally subscribe to the Godhead as taught in the scriptures and described by the Jews. I firmly believe in the oneness....but not the oneness of Jesus only radicals.
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"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
Executive Servant http://www.newlife-church.org
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03-28-2010, 06:07 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,740
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord
I think the doctrine of election is an affront to the very nature of a just God. But that's just my opinion.
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Quote:
Regarding modalism: There are some in the UPC who are extreme Jesus only's and that there are those who claim to be modalistic who really are not. I believe that "modalism" in it's pure form is probably more close to a correct definition of the Godhead than trinitarianism could ever be. Although, I probably do not subscribe to modalism, I think it definitely has its merits.
I, personally subscribe to the Godhead as taught in the scriptures and described by the Jews. I firmly believe in the oneness....but not the oneness of Jesus only radicals.
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What do the "Jesus only's" believe about the Godhead? And why do you consider them to be radical?
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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03-28-2010, 06:26 PM
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Love God, Love Your Neighbor
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,363
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
What is pure modalism?
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03-28-2010, 06:51 PM
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Jesus' Name Pentecostal
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 17,805
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*
What is pure modalism?
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Good question.
I'm not sure.
I thought pure modalism is that God was Father, then became Son and was no longer Father, and is now Holy Ghost and is no longer Father or Son. Sorta like Clark Kent has to leave before Superman can appear.
I may be wrong about that definition.
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03-28-2010, 06:52 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,740
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Re: Wayne Grudem's 'Systematic Theology'
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*
What is pure modalism?
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Jason Dulle has an interesting article on the subject: http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/ugstsymposium.htm
Another name is Sabellianism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism
Or modalistic monarchianism. Tertullian's, Against Praxeas, is an interesting read. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf0...xeas#highlight
The arguments of some early Christians against Modalism are misrepresentations and misunderstandings on their part, imo. Unfortunately all of the original writings of those who held to a type of modalism are lost so we can only read what their antagonists wrote about them.
This is what Wayne Grudem wrote in his Systematic Theology book about modalists. Go to page 242:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DA8...age&q=&f=false
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
Last edited by mizpeh; 03-28-2010 at 06:57 PM.
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