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06-14-2019, 03:05 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness
David also committed murder and adultery yet was still a man after God's own heart but I wouldn't recommend committing murder and adultery.
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Well, I think you had best stick with the Bible, Mr. Apostolic1ness. Don't be turning the church into your personal whore. So, murder and adultery for all!
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06-14-2019, 03:57 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by Sister Alvear
Just wondering if Moses had a beard? ��
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Originally Posted by Sister Alvear
Or maybe Father Abraham ?
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Sis would your husband allow a guest preacher to preach for you all if he had a beard?
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06-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
Sad that the Apostles and even preachers from Azuza Street and founders of modern Apo/Pente organizations wouldn't be welcomed on most Apostolic platforms today.
Not that they'd even want to, considering how the church has changed from the beginning.
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06-14-2019, 04:22 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by votivesoul
There are parts I agree with, overall, and parts I do not. Something I do not agree with is:
How is an extra-Biblical standard going to help a church deal with a problem they are having that an actual Biblical standard isn't going to already solve?
Can you give me a biblical standard that would fix the predicament given by Bro. Burk: clothing color associating a saint with a local gang? Or is that not a problem the church should be concerned with? The capacity to solve a problem without creating innumerable other problems is a very difficult thing. You add to that mix an extra-Biblical mandate and enforce it as a standard of the church, that the members are required to obey in order to be in good standing, regardless of the expected benefit, is just asking for trouble.
If the standard isn't fixing a problem, then it shouldn't be instituted. On that we can agree completely. But we aren't in charge of each and every congregation across this globe, so I'm not sure why everyone thinks they know better than those involved in each congregation. No matter how much one or a few people in leadership think their extra-Biblical mandate is going to make things better, the chances of that happening across the board and also not making anything worse is pretty slim. This is the slippery slope I mentioned. Add just one extra-Biblical thing, and the temptation to add another will inevitably show up. Count on it.
I understand the hesitation, but the invalidity of one rule isn't evidence that another rule isn't appropriate. And then what? Who determines what really is and isn't a problem in the church? What if all members don't see it that way? Who gets to make the call? Why them and not others? And how can anyone know for sure that the problem can only and should only be solved with an extra-Biblical standard?
That would be for the elders of the local congregation to decide. I'm honestly not sure why you are trying to demand perfection from those instituting rules, though. I think we have enough bible to say that fornication is wrong -- with the way things are going, perhaps someone will want to argue that -- but that doesn't stop young people from fooling around and being forced to deal with all of the fallout. What you are presenting as unintended consequences, I am viewing as people being people. They are trying their best, but make mistakes. Some of us are afflicted by that. Thankfully there are many amongst us -- especially on this forum -- who are not. I remember reading on this very forum how several years ago, due to some famous preacher's end-time teaching, people were not getting married or if married, not having children, because of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 7 (his desire to remain as he was, and the present distress that was coming).
Now, this preacher may not have mandated such a choice for his audience, but the end result was the same. An intended solution to a perceived to be, but wasn't actually real, problem, didn't help anyone in the long run, it just messed with people's lives unnecessarily.
Do you seriously view this example on the same plane as elders asking for clean shaven men in leadership? My goodness, if we just had Bro. Benincasa's attitude and did it out of respect for our brethren, wouldn't all of these unintended consequences just melt away? If you simply can't do that, move on. How can people bark about man-made standards to get on a man-made platform at a man-made church -- because WE are the REAL church -- with a straight face? Simply move on down the road. Why fight and be contentious? I see a lot of finger pointing at the stay-shaved folks, but the attitude of the beard folk leaves a lot to be desired. And are we seriously going to fault people for trying to be proactive? Your take seems to be it isn't a problem if it isn't a problem. Next time I'm cooking, I won't tell my daughter to stay away from the burner. I'll just keep some ointment on hand in case she burns herself. After all, a potential problem isn't a real threat, only problem problems need attention, right? Again, if you think the church you attend has leadership that is just north of cuckoo, MOVE ON. Don't sit around waiting for things to fester. Take a little responsibility and nip it in the bud. #barneyfife The fact is, you become beholden to obey whatever it is you practice. Any extra-Biblical standard that gets instituted into a church eventually becomes an institution in and of itself. You might hope that the problem you thought you were solving will eventually be revisited and everyone will be on board for making changes as the situation on the ground changes, but that's a pipedream. This beard, shave or no shave issue proves this is so. We're more than 40 years in and the issue is spiritually deadly in its level of contentiousness.
Yes, we have asked for men to stay out of the nursery because at any given time it is possible, though unlikely, that someone might be breastfeeding an infant. We hold this standard high and ask to be exalted for our observance of such. We also refuse to let a single individual teach in a Sunday school class. There are always at least two persons present for the safety of both the children and the teachers. Bow down to our extra-biblical-man-made rules and punch your ticket to heaven by having just a shred of decency and respect for those around you. This shave or no shave issue proves nothing other than people still have stinking rotten attitudes on both sides of the fight. Sadly, that doesn't appear to be changing any time soon either. Had those brothers from long ago never made it an issue, it wouldn't be an issue now, and who would be the worse off? Likely no one. But instead, we've got a mountain of a problem out of a molehill of a "solution". All because some leaders went extra-Biblical on the church.
We have to quit assuming that every extra-biblical rule came with malicious intent. I disagree with a mandate to be clean shaven. I believe it has been abused in some places, and anyone trying to put another in hell for not adhering to this rule should be ashamed of themselves. I am in no way trying to defend this particular rule. BUT, to fight against it by accusing them of being idolatrous whoremongers is only escalating the situation. I don't see how such rhetoric is going to get a point across. To be honest, I feel the same way about abortion. To call pro-choice folks "baby killers" might be simply an accurate statement to the one presenting it, but all it does is turn off the target audience. So just keep it up. I've never seen a group so self-righteous about being biblically righteous in my entire life.
Bro. Hometown and Bro. Apostolic1ness have both stated they aren't putting bearded folks in hell. So if you want to discuss whether or not that is the "logical conclusion" of their stance, they would likely be willing to discuss the matter. But to anyone who would accuse them of turning the bride of Christ into their own personal whore, you are just as wrong as you think they are. I don't care if it was presented "with all the love of Jesus." To accuse brothers and sisters of such malicious things is only good for causing strife.
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So, yeah, I just made Bro. Benincasa the gold-standard around here. Take that, AFF.
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06-14-2019, 05:53 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by Ehud
Bro. Hometown and Bro. Apostolic1ness have both stated they aren't putting bearded folks in hell. So if you want to discuss whether or not that is the "logical conclusion" of their stance, they would likely be willing to discuss the matter.
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I have twice brought up the "logical conclusion" with Hometown's claim that saints who don't follow the church belief on beards are in rebellion, but both posts were ignored.
They claim it's not a heaven/hell issue, but if Hometown believes someone is in rebellion for having facial hair, then either rebellion isn't really all that bad/not a sin or the rebellious bearded man will go to hell and he might as well just come out and call it what it is -- a heaven/hell issue.
Say what you believe. Don't beat around the bush or try to avoid the issue.
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06-14-2019, 06:08 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,778
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness
David also committed murder and adultery yet was still a man after God's own heart but I wouldn't recommend committing murder and adultery.
Based on the "logical conclusions" your coming to I guess these things will make you a man after God's own heart like David right?
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You’re making my point for me. You see, we HAVE scripture against murder and adultery. Wearing beards? not so much!
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06-14-2019, 06:37 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by n david
Who cares about context! Let's make stuff up.
Samson had long hair which gave him strength.
Samuel also was given a Nazarite vow and he was a Prophet who's anointing oil ran down his beard.
Thus, all men who wish to be mighty men of strength and Prophets of God should grow their hair long and grow beards!
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I really have had an epiphany! There’s no use in being half hearted about our doctrine. Let’s take it up a notch. Let’s preach against five o’clock shadows!
If you’re really submissive, let’s maybe shave three . . . No maybe five times a day! Once a day simply is letting the devil get his nose under the tent. Oh sorry . . . It was the camel’s nose. Before you know it you’ll be a full blown reprobate. That’s how slippery slopes happen! Once you skip a day shaving, you’ll probably NEVER be able to recover. You’re gonna bust skid row wide open. The next thing you’ll be smoking dope and Drinking alkyhall.
Then some evangelist (with a fresh shave of course) will be telling your story during altar call. And he’ll say “ it all started when I noticed him in line at Costco, and he had a five o’clock shadow “. All the sheeple , I meant to say saints, will make a run on Schick disposables down at 7/11 because Gillette is of the debbil and Schick doesn’t do transgender commercials.
Or something like that.
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06-14-2019, 07:26 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
I have twice brought up the "logical conclusion" with Hometown's claim that saints who don't follow the church belief on beards are in rebellion, but both posts were ignored.
They claim it's not a heaven/hell issue, but if Hometown believes someone is in rebellion for having facial hair, then either rebellion isn't really all that bad/not a sin or the rebellious bearded man will go to hell and he might as well just come out and call it what it is -- a heaven/hell issue.
Say what you believe. Don't beat around the bush or try to avoid the issue.
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Can you find my post where I said that?
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06-14-2019, 07:28 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by Tithesmeister
You’re making my point for me. You see, we HAVE scripture against murder and adultery. Wearing beards? not so much!
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Your taking the response out of context.
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06-14-2019, 08:01 PM
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Re: To Beard or Not to Beard, That is The Question
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Originally Posted by hometown guy
Your taking the response out of context.
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How so? Please enlighten me.
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