Before the beginning...what?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!

Yes. The Lord was certainly "...caught up unto God, and to his throne."
Yes. That certainly transpired about 2,000 years ago.

So, "...his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to
the earth...": were these saints or angels? If angels, was this a reflection of the
past, before "time" began? or was this a repetition of what actually happened
to angels, but now foretelling the coming apostasy?

Brother Villa

I believe it was when Christ ascended. And Jesus often spoke of that generation. Something happened in the Spirit realm when Jerusalem fell just as Jesus said in Matthew 24. Just as Israel entered Canaan after the passover lamb, the walls of the temple came down like Jericho 40 years after the cross.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by Esaias

My reasoning is not that the woman was in heaven and then came down to the earth. The text only speaks of one woman. If you want to make up "a woman in two aspects" that's your business, I just go with what the text actually says.

Well, if you can read that whole 12th chapter, and not see that John beheld a woman in heaven, a dragon in heaven, a manchild born to the woman in heaven and caught up to the throne, a woman in heaven protected for 3 1/2 years, a dragon cast out of heaven to the earth, a heaven rejoicing that the dragon was cast down to the earth, a warning to earth's inhabitants that a wroth dragon was now among them on the earth, an earth-bound dragon pursuing a woman on earth who had brought forth the man, and a woman on earth protected by God for 3 1/2 years, then there is nothing else to say. If you choose to view that chapter with an ostrich mentality that's your business, I'm just going with what the text actually says.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by mfblume

I believe it was when Christ ascended. And Jesus often spoke of that generation. Something happened in the Spirit realm when Jerusalem fell just as Jesus said in Matthew 24. Just as Israel entered Canaan after the passover lamb, the walls of the temple came down like Jericho 40 years after the cross.

Tell me, Beloved (or anyone else):

Do you believe that iniquity cannot exist in eternity?
Do you not believe that iniquity was cast out of eternity?
If iniquity cannot exist in eternity, and it was cast out: where was it cast?
Do you believe in the Law of Holiness: iniquity cannot exist in its presence?

Just trying to see how similar/different we are in doctrine.

Brother Villa

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!

Tell me, Beloved (or anyone else):

Do you believe that iniquity cannot exist in eternity?
Do you not believe that iniquity was cast out of eternity?
If iniquity cannot exist in eternity, and it was cast out: where was it cast?
Do you believe in the Law of Holiness: iniquity cannot exist in its presence?

Just trying to see how similar/different we are in doctrine.

Brother Villa

Moot issues to the issue at hand. I only have time to deal with the issue at hand. Not interested in more, to be honest.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

I have said it before: one reason a man speaks is to be corrected.

Having said that, I also believe that no one person (or many) know everything:
the Church needs each member to bring Truth to the table that we may come
"...in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a
perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ...".

I believe this has been God's plan:
God took all His attributes and considered every possible scenario, and foresaw
the fellowship of sons and daughters with and in Him: the end product. He
allowed iniquity and sin, that that fellowship might not be mandatory but it
would be VOLUNTARY in nature. So in His plan he had to arrange for a place
in which he would eventually deal with iniquity and sin, and the redemption
of man. So God firstly created a place enclosed in time: it had a beginning
and an end.

Next, God created the angels; spiritual beings with a free will! God would allow
iniquity to be found in the one angel in which He would place his utmost trust
and with the utmost beauty. That angel would cover (guard) God's holiness.
(We must understand that in his omniscience God foresaw iniquity and sin).
If there is any one attribute that best exemplifies God, it is Wisdom: and it is
best described in Holiness. But God had a plan.

God is love: not just love, but LOVE. Love is the one attribute that demanded
expression: LOVE demanded to LOVE! It needed to express itself outside of
itself. And that is the reason, Beloved Church, why man was created: it was
to RECEIVE God's LOVE.

But since iniquity and sin could forever corrupt God's Love in man, then God
would have to first deal with that element before He created man. "And the
earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." God foresaw that
iniquity and sin come upon man: God saw the problem and saw the resolution
to the problem: He SPOKE. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was
light." This was not the light that shines in the day, nor shines at night. No: it
was "...the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
It was the Light that would dress itself in humanity by the Word spoken to a
young girl: it was the Word that said, "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest
not, but a body hast thou prepared me...".

Iniquity was created before redemption, therefore it has no recourse to redemption.
Man was created AFTER redemption, because man was created for His pleasure.

I have spoken for too long: take it or leave it.

Brother Villa