Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3 - DRY BAPTISM?

[mfblume]

I posted this several times elsewhere on the forum and got no reply whatsoever. Let me try here in the deeper waters section. It will just take a couple of posts to explain.

Romans 6's baptism is not generally agreed upon as referring to water baptism. Many think it is a "dry" baptism, since it is simply not talking about immersion in water. I believe I can prove it is not a dry baptism without water.

Here is the passage in question.

Romans 6:3-6 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

All agree that 1 Peter 3 is about water baptism. And 1 Peter 3 through to 4 shows us the same details of Romans 6's and Romans 8's references to baptism.

Here are Peter's words:

1 Peter 3:18-4:3 KJV For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (4:1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. (3) For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

[mfblume]

In the first few verses of 1 Pet 4, Peter said that baptism is related to ceasing from sin and not living the rest of our lives to the lusts of the flesh.

Romans 6 says the same thing!

After baptism into Christ's death, we can say we are crucified so that the body of the sins of the flesh is destroyed so we should not serve sin. Romans 8 picks up on this and says we're quickened to resurrect with Christ so we are no longer debtors to live after the flesh.

Romans 8:11-12 KJV But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

In short, if 1 Pet 3 is about water baptism, then Romans 6 must be as well since the purpose for baptism in both chapters is one and the same. And if that is the case, we enter Christ's death by faith-engendered baptism into that death! How VITAL is that?

[mfblume]

Here is what I wrote earlier about this issue:

I feel blessed from what I feel the Lord gave to me regarding BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW EVEN SAVE US in 1 Peter 3.

I just re-read this passage again in its entirety, and believe I have found some nuggets that are priceless indeed! For those interested, let me share them.

1 Peter 3:18-22 KJV For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Verse 18 sets the picture. Jesus died in the flesh and was quickened by the Spirit.
Keep this in mind as we read on.

It was by that same Spirit that quickened Him that he preached to the spirits in prison. This is a controversial passage, but of no consequence in the overall issue of water baptism. However, I believe it is saying that Noah preached in his day in the anointing of the Spirit of Christ to those who are now in "prison" as spirits. The reason they are now in prison is because they disobeyed Noah and perished. He preached about salvation by water, which of course meant entrance into the ark.

Peter then stated that the picture of Noah preaching in the anointing of the Spirit for the people to be saved by water (regardless if we have a Genesis account of that preaching or not, the point is the same) is a figure of how baptism saves us. Baptism of course involves water.

Peter gave a disclaimer in parentheses, saying the salvation is not cleansing filth of the flesh, so that we do not derive a legalistic merely mechanical concept where faith is not required. And then Peter proceeded to state how the salvation in baptism is possible.

...baptism doth also now save us ... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Consider those words. "Baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus."

I believe this is inseparable from the understanding we find in Romans 6 regarding baptism. There, Paul stated that the entire reason we are baptized into Christ's death is because Christ resurrected from His death. In other words, we will share His resurrection if we enjoin ourselves to His death. Since He resurrected from His death, when we are baptized into that death we will likewise, therefore, resurrect with Him! In THAT SENSE, baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

[mfblume]

It reminds me of the other very controversial words found in 1 Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:29 KJV (29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Baptism FOR THE DEAD in this verse, I believe, means we are baptized BECAUSE OF CHRIST'S DEATH. We are baptized into His death (Ro 6:3) because His death caused Him to resurrect. What is the purpose of baptism into the death of Jesus if there is no resurrection from the dead? If Jesus did not resurrect, then the reason for baptism's salvation is lost! Peter said baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus. In other words, if Jesus did not resurrect from the dead, why bother with baptism? Our purpose in being baptized is to resurrect with Jesus.

And Peter continued his words say that baptism saves us by the resurrection of Jesus which then led to Jesus Christ's seating at the right hand over all powers.

1 Peter 3:21-22 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

In other words, this salvation in baptism is possible by the resurrection of Jesus Christ who went to such an extent of resurrection that He was seated at the right hand throne of God!

OH WOW. This is just coming to me now. I never saw this until I wrote this post....

Keep reading.

1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; (2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

When we keep reading from chapter 3, we realize the SALVATION IS FROM SIN. As much as Jesus resurrected and went to the right hand place of POWER (hint hint), we do not have to live the rest of our time in the flesh to the lusts of the flesh and all its sins! It took us to the place of KINGDOM POWER over the lusts of the flesh.

Paul said the same thing.

Romans 8:11-12 KJV But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Romans 6:6-7 KJV Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:12 KJV Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The common denominator in Peter and Romans is that the Spirit that resurrected Jesus can quicken us so that we do not have to live after the flesh.

When you compare Peter's words with Paul's in Romans 6 and 8, it all comes together!

If 1 Peter 3's baptism is with water, how can not Romans 6 be about water as well, since they are speaking the same thing?

Comments?

[onefaith2]

Yes I think along the same lines as you Mike. I have done study on this as well. It seems that such a vital truth is discarded because it requires a man to be involved with the salvation of a soul.. amazing that would be a problem????

[mfblume]

Amen. That reminds me. God made it so that man can rule with Him at His throne. Therefore, why should it be a problem to consider that God has man take part in salvation, albeit, through the power of His Spirit?

[Lafon]

Thanks, Mike, for sharing your insight into this important matter. The only comment I would venture to add to everything you've written is this: when we read these words in I Peter 3:21 - not the putting away of the filth of the flesh - why is it that so many today say one should interpret this phrase to mean that Peter was stating that water baptism is not undertaken for the purpose of ridding the body of "dirt" (for lack of a better word), but for the purpose of achieving a good conscience toward God? This has always been somewhat confusing to me, for if this interpretation of Peter's phrase be true, then how is it possible for one to associate earthy "dirt," which is a substantive, visible" thing, with man's "conscience," which is an "invisible, non-substantive" thing? I simply fail to see the correlation between the two.

That which I do glean from Peter's use of this phrase, however, is this - the one thing which obedience to the command for immersion in the waters of baptism does not acccomplish (and, BTW, I do believe it is for the remission of sin), is that it does not negate, or render null and void the devastating consequences of that penalty of death which God imposed upon the physical body of all mankind (a judgment which we inherited through the "corruptible seed" of our forefather Adam). Is this not why we find it written so many times in the scriptures, wherein it implies that the death of the flesh is an experience which is "common" to everyone, without exemptions whatsoever?

What say ye to this? I would enjoy reading your thoughts.

Regards,
Lafon

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Thanks, Mike, for sharing your insight into this important matter. The only comment I would venture to add to everything you've written is this: when we read these words in I Peter 3:21 - not the putting away of the filth of the flesh - why is it that so many today say one should interpret this phrase to mean that Peter was stating that water baptism is not undertaken for the purpose of ridding the body of "dirt" (for lack of a better word), but for the purpose of achieving a good conscience toward God? This has always been somewhat confusing to me, for if this interpretation of Peter's phrase be true, then how is it possible for one to associate earthy "dirt," which is a substantive, visible" thing, with man's "conscience," which is an "invisible, non-substantive" thing? I simply fail to see the correlation between the two.

I agree is is somewhat ridiculous to say Peter was not telling us to think baptism was washing visible and physical dirt from our bodies. No one would assume that, anyway. But what he could only have meant was that baptism was not accomplishing the cleansing of something spiritual by physical water.

That which I do glean from Peter's use of this phrase, however, is this - the one thing which obedience to the command for immersion in the waters of baptism does not acccomplish (and, BTW, I do believe it is for the remission of sin), is that it does not negate, or render null and void the devastating consequences of that penalty of death which God imposed upon the physical body of all mankind (a judgment which we inherited through the "corruptible seed" of our forefather Adam). Is this not why we find it written so many times in the scriptures, wherein it implies that the death of the flesh is an experience which is "common" to everyone, without exemptions whatsoever?

What say ye to this? I would enjoy reading your thoughts.

Regards,
Lafon

Amen, I agree. We shall physically die whether we were baptized or not!

[mfblume]

What are the opinions about my comparison with Peter's words and Romans from the people who claim baptism is waterless in Romans 6?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Very thought provoking writing Brother Blume.