Apostoic worship??

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, if I contemplate while I pray, I can't call it contemplative prayer?

Call it whatever you want, soaked. Just don't claim it's the same as what is commonly known as contemplative prayer. Because it's not.

You calling prayer and studying "contemplative prayer" is a dumb as those christian t-shirts switching around secular phrases and slogans.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Here's a thought, stop calling it contemplative prayer. You're praying or studying. That's it. You're not doing what is commonly known as "contemplative prayer." So stop with the stupidity.

What Keating practiced and taught is NOT something Pentecostals have been doing for over a century. We do not believe we are divine. We do not "center" ourselves in order to contact the divine nature within ourselves. That is mysticism. That is occultism.

I do perceive that you're all caught up in words. lol If Keating can show me that he owns the rights to the words "contemplative" and "prayer", I'll stop using the terms. But... he doesn't own those words.

What I found interesting is that I used those words and people began barking like wild dogs again. But here's what I found entertaining... no one really paid close attention to what I was saying about my understanding of contemplative prayer until now. Instead, I was instantly classified as a "witch" before anyone really began to realize, what I'm talking about is not entirely like what Keating teaches. LOL

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Call it whatever you want, soaked. Just don't claim it's the same as what is commonly known as contemplative prayer. Because it's not.

You calling prayer and studying "contemplative prayer" is a dumb as those christian t-shirts switching around secular phrases and slogans.

No... I think Keating's use of the phrase, "Contemplative Prayer" is dumb. First, as you pointed out... there's no real "contemplation". Second, there's no reak prayer. So, I contend that my understanding of "contemplative prayer" is far more accurate.

Tell Keating to stop using the term.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I do perceive that you're all caught up in words. lol If Keating can show me that he owns the rights to the words "contemplative" and "prayer", I'll stop using the terms. But... he doesn't own those words.

What I found interesting is that I used those words and people began barking like wild dogs again. But here's what I found entertaining... no one really paid close attention to what I was saying about my understanding of contemplative prayer until now. Instead, I was instantly classified as a "witch" before anyone really began to realize, what I'm talking about is not entirely like what Keating teaches. LOL

Perhaps it's because you claimed you practiced contemplative prayer, which to the overwhelming majority of people means something completely different than what you described.

smh

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No... I think Keating's use of the phrase, "Contemplative Prayer" is dumb. First, as you pointed out... there's no real "contemplation". Second, there's no prayer. So, I contend that my understanding of "contemplative prayer" is far more accurate.

Tell Keating to stop using the term.

Go soak yourself.



Good grief.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

A book I highly recommend you read is Jessie Penn-Lewis' War on the Saints. Here's a link to the 1912 edition:
http://www.banner.org.uk/media/books...the_Saints.pdf

I don't agree with everything she wrote, but she is spot on regarding the dangers of "passivity".
Here's the important part of her book in HTML: http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/a...ticle&aid=1668

[Esaias]

Another important chapter from her book:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/a...ticle&aid=1670

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think a lot of people (including Pentecostals) just balk at the idea that the Scripture is the higher authority. They just don't like the idea that they themselves aren't ultimately in charge. Sure, they obey God's Word - when and where it suits them. But actual correction from the word? No, that's just not gonna fly. They have to "feel convicted" first, for example. They don't feel convicted from the word, either, necessarily. It's gotta be some kind of internal angst or something, which ultimately means their religion is not Bible directed but self directed.

Anyway, I haven't heard a lot of preaching the last 10-15 years or so that really exalted the Bible as the "final authority for faith and practice" like I heard when I first came into the Truth.

Everyman to his tents?

How can I explain this...

I remember having similar thoughts until I realized something... it's not necessarily that so many saints bulk at the Scripture being the ultimate authority. It's that in most cases, what is being rejected is an individual's interpretation of it. You see, we can both read the very same Bible, and walk away with very different understandings of what God desires or expects of us. Then we both can post tons of Bible verses back and forth as proof texts for our positions. Now, when you say everything you wrote above, I'm assuming that by saying what you said, you're thinking that if everyone comes into agreement with what YOU believe the Bible to say, they'll be more in line with what you believe is the ultimate authority of Scripture. But the reality would be... that they submitted to you as an ultimate authority of Scripture.

The Bible is truly our ultimate authority. But I was taught that the entire purpose of the Bible is to guide us into a living, Spirit led, relationship with God not unlike those who are recorded in it. Without that, I just have a man's interpretation of what he believes the Bible is saying. And thereby, I've made that man's interpretation my ultimate authority. And by doing that... I've made him my ultimate authority. That's why "cults" are so dogmatic. If you don't believe it just like the guy up front... you're wrong. But that is carnal logic. It isn't the way of the Spirit.

What is your understanding of the following passage?

Romans 14:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

How might the spiritual principles in this passage be applied to this thread?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

How can I explain this...

I remember having similar thoughts until I realized something... it's not necessarily that so many saints bulk at the Scripture being the ultimate authority. It's that in most cases, what is being rejected is an individual's interpretation of it. You see, we can both read the very same Bible, and walk away with very different understandings of what God desires or expects of us. Then we both can post tons of Bible verses back and forth as proof texts for our positions. Now, when you say everything you wrote above, I'm assuming that by saying what you said, you're thinking that if everyone comes into agreement with what YOU believe the Bible to say, they'll be more in line with what you believe is the ultimate authority of Scripture. But the reality would be... that they submitted to you as an ultimate authority of Scripture.

The Bible is truly our ultimate authority. But I was taught that the entire purpose of the Bible is to guide us into a living, Spirit led, relationship with God not unlike those who are recorded in it. Without that, I just have a man's interpretation of what he believes the Bible is saying. And thereby, I've made that man's interpretation my ultimate authority. And by doing that... I've made him my ultimate authority. That's why "cults" are so dogmatic. If you don't believe it just like the guy up front... you're wrong. But that is carnal logic. It isn't the way of the Spirit.

What I have seen is a growth in a genuine "it doesn't matter what the Bible says, I feel like doing it THIS way and that's that." When a person doesn't make recourse to Scripture, it is no mere interpretational issue, it is a source of authority issue.

I don't expect anyone to just agree with me EXCEPT IN ONE POINT: THAT SCRIPTURE ALONE DETERMINES WHAT IS TRUE AND WHAT IS FALSE. Everything else can be hashed out, but without that common ground there is no "interpretational differences", there is only steadfast opposition to one another.

Can two walk together unless they are agreed? No, they can't, nor can they even discuss Bible unless they have a basic common ground concerning it's authority.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Perhaps it's because you claimed you practiced contemplative prayer, which to the overwhelming majority of people means something completely different than what you described.

smh

Exactly!

And you'll notice that a great deal of you went into instant attack mode. No one paused and said, "Wait. What do you mean by that?" I even tried to explain what I meant by it voluntarily. And, instead of actually letting what I was actually saying sink in... I was accused of mysticism, being a witch, blah, blah, blah. At one point, I was even told that what I was saying wasn't true, I was really a witch, and what I really believe is the new age garbage! LOL Only in the past few posts has someone actually stopped and realized... what I'm saying isn't exactly what I'm being accused of.

There's a very combative spirt in this forum. A spirit that has given the gift of criticism, sarcasm, and insult instead of the gift of discernment.

Having said all that... I feel that folks were pretty hard on what Michael was really trying to say. Instead of investing the energy in trying to understand Bro. Michael (A BROTHER), a lot of energy was invested in trying to tie him to IHOP and throw him overboard. A great deal of effort was made to try to tie me to Keating and Vineyard to justify throwing me overboard.

When I say that one must be careful around here (this forum) because it seems like a lot of guys are like barking attack dogs ready to rip people to pieces... this is kinda what I'm talking about.

And trust me. It's not easy trying to bear this out. Most of the time... it's the entire thread against me. LOL

Oh well, I like to have a lot of fun while illustrating a point. I've enjoyed it. I pray you have walked away with something too.