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  #51  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:40 PM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Apparently this "DL" posted on FB. Unless it was via FB messenger, I find this incredibly hard to believe. Even via messenger, I think what was actually said was embellished and exaggerated.
Yea I think Aquila hates Donald Trump. But the question I ask to him is would you rather have Hillary? That would've terrible.
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  #52  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:59 PM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Yea I think Aquila hates Donald Trump. But the question I ask to him is would you rather have Hillary? That would've terrible.
The lesser of two evils only leaves you with an evil.

Donald Trump's daughter to marry an Orthodox Jew had to renounce Jesus Christ.

You only have one King and President Jesus Christ. We serve one Lord, we have only one faith. The rulers of this world we pray for them that they leave us ALONE.
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  #53  
Old 04-16-2018, 06:12 PM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
The lesser of two evils only leaves you with an evil.

Donald Trump's daughter to marry an Orthodox Jew had to renounce Jesus Christ.

You only have one King and President Jesus Christ. We serve one Lord, we have only one faith. The rulers of this world we pray for them that they leave us ALONE.
I mean I understand that Im not a Trump supporter. But Im glad Hillary didn't become president, it would've been even worse right now. A different kind of worse.

But I do know Paul did say in Romans 13:1-7 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. [2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: [4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. [6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. [7] Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Because as John the Baptist said in John 3:27 "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven." And Jesus told Pilate in John 19:11 "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above." So in that I trust God. Regardless, of what these people are doing! I keep my faith in Him. I've never voted in my life, because all politicians are corrupt if you ask me. But "they couldnt have any power at all against me, except it were given to them from above."
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  #54  
Old 04-16-2018, 06:35 PM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
Yea I think Aquila hates Donald Trump. But the question I ask to him is would you rather have Hillary? That would've terrible.
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  #55  
Old 04-16-2018, 08:04 PM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Lol
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  #56  
Old 04-17-2018, 01:53 AM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Why isn't the model of leadership proposed in the opening posts more prevalent?
It's hard to say how prevalent it is. There are a lot of un-networked independent assemblies that meet in homes (I do not like the phrase "house church", and try never to use it).

Or, even if they are, they may be pretty low under the radar.

Otherwise, the model I have attempted to propose is or can be incredibly difficult to maintain. It cuts across the grain of what is normative to the Gentile mind and worldview, an insight the Lord Jesus made clear to us in the Gospels.

Additionally, almost everyone is familiar with "church" as American pastime and construct. It's very common to roll with whatever has already been established, monolithically, in nearly every metropolis, city, town, village and hamlet. The normative, current church model is dominant, and has been so for a very long time. It's one of the least questioned hallmarks of the Medieval Age.

Only in the last 10-20 years, with the advent of the Internet, has the world of ideas truly been as close as one's fingertips. That includes differing ecclesiastical ideas of what a church should look like, how it should be structured, or in what way it's supposed to operate. I think therefore, that the prevalence will increase as we move forward.

Additionally, if the model I have tried to articulate here in some small way, really is something worth working toward, worth being defined as something the Lord Jesus personally wants for His Body to adopt, then a completely different consideration needs to be addressed, and that is, one of divine providence and timing.

Just as Jesus had many things to teach His Apostles, but knew they were not ready, I submit that there might yet be many things Jesus has yet to teach the Apostolic Church, but it's not ready. That can be true of any truth our Savior wants to bring forward, not just this. So, maybe it's true, here, too?

Quote:
Most of those who are leading in this proposed model are those who were saved in the traditional church model, are gifted elders and able to lead a home fellowship.
Agreed, however, there is a certain frame of mind, a type of recalibration or period of adjustment, that may be necessary. It depends case by case. We all are molded into certain things, and grow into those molds, internalizing them, associating them with things like our salvation, and etc.

Breaking free from a mold is or at least can be, incredibly challenging. Consider what Jesus had to do to Saul of Tarsus. Now, it may not be as dramatic as the Damascus Road, but the principle there, of what it can take, or how long it might take to really manifest, plus the inherent costs involved (a man stands the chance of losing everything and everyone, in some cases) show the potential difficulty in making such a transition.

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A majority of the home church fellowships are charismatic, or Hebrew roots, or in some way not Apostolic. It does not seem viable for the majority of people.
I don't know the statistics enough to say what the majority of home church fellowships are like, or how each might define or align themselves theologically, but certainly there are advantages and disadvantages, the same with any other model of church structure. And navigating those waters can be tricky for many because those are waters not routinely sailed. Some simply won't, or can't, take the journey.

Conversely, if the "house church" model was all that someone ever knew, and he or she decided to transition to a more mainstream or current model, it could be just as hard or scary.

Ultimately, the anchor of the soul is what matters. Being anchored in Christ, being full of the Holy Spirit, walking in charity, being merciful to all, maintaining integrity, being humble, all the hallmarks of Biblical Christianity, will give the person all they need to find their way into God's perfect will, no matter the model or place of fellowship.

Like Esaias wrote, we just have to be willing to do whatever He tells us to do, no matter what, never losing the desire to be a part of God's family, the church, in whatever form it's currently taking. As long as it still belongs to Him, things will work out all right.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 04-17-2018 at 01:55 AM.
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  #57  
Old 04-17-2018, 02:20 AM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Aaron, is this the attitude you mean to promote on this forum?
I understand it. Polemicizing is always a tempting direction to take, but I don't know that it garners much fruit. I also know that the distance and relative anonymity of the Internet can lead a person to write more forcibly or more derogatively, than they otherwise would do so, if speaking in person.

For me, I try to always see past the bluster, to determine if the message is sound.

I also know that it's easy to misunderstand the causes behind one's hurt. There are a lot of hurting people in the world, many are Apostolics, and they need as much help and ministry as anyone else. So, if someone is speaking from a place of pain, I try to also look past it, and try and figure out what's going on underneath the polemic. Trust is so very fragile, and a trust that's been broken is a deep wound many are never able to survive.

As much as some enjoy dumping all over pastors and elders and leaders who have set themselves up as popes of their assemblies, and some certainly have done so, we have to remember, that for everyone who wants to lord it over God's heritage, there's a group of people who want to have that person be their lord.

So, sometimes, the loudest voice heard, railing against traditional church structure and polity is simply from the person who wakes up one day realizing they were an idolater, and the truth and pain of that is more than they can take, and so, the finger they begin throwing in everyone' face is merely the outgrowth of the realization of the finger they know deep down inside they have been pointing at themselves for their sin.

I have been working with this couple for well over a year. It was pretty clear the wife had some deep anger roiling beneath the surface. She was mad at her husband for this, mad at her kids for that, mad at her co-workers for the other things, mad at her former church and its leaders, mad at her mom and dad for how she grew up, and it all manifested in an unmistakable "Martha" typology.

Finally, we talked about Martha, and her issues, how, the only one Martha was really mad at was Jesus. Well, the walls came tumbling down that night. Her life has not yet become perfect, or anything, but the light is on now inside her head, and she can learn to walk in that light, for the first time in a long time.

It's no different here. Change is hard. Being able to articulate a clear vision of what needs to change, why it needs to change, how the change can be accomplished, and what the finished new product ought to look and act like, becomes nearly impossible if the one calling for the change is in a tumult of un-sorted out feelings. Their pathos will get in the way every time.

In such instances, the key is to help them realize they need to talk less and heal more.
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  #58  
Old 04-17-2018, 02:37 AM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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maybe this is why the home church movement has not gained ground? the attitude is so bitter that God can not bless it?
If all a "house church" is is a rage-a-thon or gossip session, then quite true, no blessing will come forth for them. Persecution Complex is an ugly thing.

But, since we know that bitterness is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and is not a quality of character that the Lord Jesus brings about in a person's life, I think it's important to try and find out how and why such bitterness developed, if it's really there.

Unless a person just snapped one day and decided to backslide and take the world with them to hell, there's usually a reason, and as much as we might not like to think so, some have been wounded and have, albeit in a carnal way, a "right" to be bitter. Their wound has infected them, the same as any physical injury.

I was researching hernias the other day, and I came across the website of a clinic with photographs of various types of hernias, and the surgical procedures that were done to repair them, and some of the pics were hard to look at, for different reasons. But the take away for me was the question "Why in the world did these people wait so long before they had this fixed"?

Some of the hernias were as big as softballs, or bigger. Hernias can be life threatening. These folks could have died, but yet, they waited and waited until they were at the very brink.

How true is this for the spiritually wounded man or woman, who waits to the very end to pursue healing, or worse, never does, and collapses one day, never to get up again?

For some, not resolving medical issues has to do with lack of insurance and/or the costs involved, so they wait it out. Many are just stubborn, though, and here is the key, as long as they can live with the pain, they won't seek treatment. Pride drives people crazy, and anger can do wonders to help people push through pain.

But pain is merely the body's way of telling the brain that something within the body is wrong, not functioning correctly, or is injured, and needs to be addressed. Some pain needs to be accepted, and dealt with, or lived with, or pushed through, like during exercise, or a 3pm headache on a workday.

But other pains are different. The same is true of spiritual pain. Some we can live with, and have to. Others require a visit with Dr. Jesus.
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  #59  
Old 04-17-2018, 02:46 AM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
If all a "house church" is is a rage-a-thon or gossip session, then quite true, no blessing will come forth for them. Persecution Complex is an ugly thing.

But, since we know that bitterness is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and is not a quality of character that the Lord Jesus brings about in a person's life, I think it's important to try and find out how and why such bitterness developed, if it's really there.

Unless a person just snapped one day and decided to backslide and take the world with them to hell, there's usually a reason, and as much as we might not like to think so, some have been wounded and have, albeit in a carnal way, a "right" to be bitter. Their wound has infected them, the same as any physical injury.

I was researching hernias the other day, and I came across the website of a clinic with photographs of various types of hernias, and the surgical procedures that were done to repair them, and some of the pics were hard to look at, for different reasons. But the take away for me was the question "Why in the world did these people wait so long before they had this fixed"?

Some of the hernias were as big as softballs, or bigger. Hernias can be life threatening. These folks could have died, but yet, they waited and waited until they were at the very brink.

How true is this for the spiritually wounded man or woman, who waits to the very end to pursue healing, or worse, never does, and collapses one day, never to get up again?

For some, not resolving medical issues has to do with lack of insurance and/or the costs involved, so they wait it out. Many are just stubborn, though, and here is the key, as long as they can live with the pain, they won't seek treatment. Pride drives people crazy, and anger can do wonders to help people push through pain.

But pain is merely the body's way of telling the brain that something within the body is wrong, not functioning correctly, or is injured, and needs to be addressed. Some pain needs to be accepted, and dealt with, or lived with, or pushed through, like during exercise, or a 3pm headache on a workday.

But other pains are different. The same is true of spiritual pain. Some we can live with, and have to. Others require a visit with Dr. Jesus.
What a lot of people don't realize is that the charismata for healings are just as much about non-physical injuries or illnesses, as they are for physical ones. For whatever reason, there are occasions where the Lord will not just heal a person emotionally or mentally or spiritually, unless His saints are present. He seems to sometimes sovereignly work through His people. When this is the case, no amount of prayer closet petitioning is going to bring healing for the wounded soul.

On other occasions, some people keep going horizontally to the brethren for prayer for healing, and never seem to look up. For these folks, Jesus seems to take them out to the wilderness for awhile, so He can be alone with them and do the work in a spiritual surgery no one else can do.

We need the discernment and guidance from the Holy Spirit to tell the difference, or we can make things worse.
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  #60  
Old 04-17-2018, 05:15 AM
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Re: A Glorious Church?

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People gonna learn someday, point is, that someday will be too late.
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