OT saints in the resurrection?

[Esaias]

Ready for a challenging discussion?

I've always been told, and pretty much have accepted at face value, the idea that the old testament believers will participate in the resurrection and receive eternal life.

But, is this necessarily so?

If it is, then does it mean that people who have not been born again will have eternal life? Doesn't that mean that they get eternal life due to a mere outward conformity to the requirements of the law? And wouldn't that mean that salvation under the law was way easier than it is under grace? I mean, grace is supposed to be a light yoke and an easy burden, whereas the law was supposed to be unbearable and a non-starter due to the weakness of human nature, correct?

Or, is there just a remnant, a small minority of folks under the old covenant, who had "a circumcised heart" like God said He always wanted, who will receive eternal life? But if that is true, then wouldn't that mean the whole "Acts 2:38, baptism and tongues" salvation of the new testament is not really salvation? But instead, just a replacement for the outward ceremonial rites of say circumcision and law keeping? And that one STILL has to have a circumcised heart to be saved? Which means salvation under either covenant is actually the same, just the outward rites have changed? Which in turn leads to the question: Is it possible to have that "two covenant salvation" APART from conformity to the outward rites of whatever "dispensation" one happens to be living in?

[Amanah]

In the first covenant, blessing or curses were depending on obedience, but I'm not sure they were expected to have a change in heart.

Deuteronomy 11:26-31 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse-
27the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today;
28the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
29When the LORD your God has brought you into the land you are entering to possess, you are to proclaim on Mount Gerizim the blessings, and on Mount Ebal the curses.
30As you know, these mountains are across the Jordan, westward, toward the setting sun, near the great trees of Moreh, in the territory of those Canaanites living in the Arabah in the vicinity of Gilgal.
31You are about to cross the Jordan to enter and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you. When you have taken it over and are living there,

In the first covenant the circumsicion was natural, in the second covenant circumcision is spiritual. There is still a need to obey the gospel, but now the circumcision is of the heart not of the flesh.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[Michael The Disciple]

I've always been told, and pretty much have accepted at face value, the idea that the old testament believers will participate in the resurrection and receive eternal life.

Seems to be so.

Matt 8:11

11And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Im thinking they will be in the resurrection because they will be in the kingdom of heaven.

[houston]

They were resurrected per that one gospel.

[votivesoul]

Just wading in a bit here at the moment, but a verse in Hebrews 11 comes to mind regarding OT saints.

After the long list of the "heroes of faith", it reads in verse 13 "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

It seems to me that the process of salvation has been the same, regardless of the covenant era. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

The fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, were guilty of serious sin, none of which was ever imputed to them, even though they dealt with the temporal consequences of their actions. However, this proves that their election to primary place as "fathers" shows the grace of God. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

King David wrote "Blessed is the man to whom the LORD will not impute sin". He, too, saw that his salvation was by grace through faith, that is, the LORD's grace refused to impute sin, therefore, mercy entered in to save, and all of this through faith.

Yes, there is a lot in the OT about actions, activity, and "doing" the commandments of God, but that's part and parcel of faith, obeying by faith that which you believe your Creator desires of you, so that His favor or grace is not disrupted or even worse, completely removed from your life.

This is also NT 101. In this way then, I think all those who died in faith, but didn't receive the promise of that eternal city for which they sought, by being found "in faith" at the time of their death, knowing what God said would eventually come to pass, even if generations later, shows that these too will receive life forevermore, in the resurrection.

God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. And so, even though all those OT saints "slept with their fathers", to God they are alive, and on that Last Day, they shall rise to immortal life.

Did or do they need to be "born again" in the NT sense of the idea? Yes, I think so, but not in the traditional Acts 2:38 sense as we often see it. Rather, in the "regeneration", as Jesus called it, all those who died in faith, will be regenerated to eternal life, by grace, according to their faith, passing from death to life.

The blood of Christ atoned for and was a propitiation of the sins that were committed in the past, all those constantly pushed forward year after year by the Day of Atonement. So, when Jesus died, eternal righteousness was imputed back through history to all those who were counted to be "in the faith", that is, those OT saints who never received the promise, but by their faithful obedience to God, showed their absolute resolve and conviction that the promise of a new city whose builder and maker was God, was as much theirs as it is the generations of believers from Pentecost forward.

[houston]

Matthew 27:51-53 tells us what happened right after Jesus Christ died: “Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”

[Michael The Disciple]

Aaron

Did or do they need to be "born again" in the NT sense of the idea? Yes, I think so, but not in the traditional Acts 2:38 sense as we often see it. Rather, in the "regeneration", as Jesus called it, all those who died in faith, will be regenerated to eternal life, by grace, according to their faith, passing from death to life.

Exactly. Acts 2:38 is the preview of this final transformation.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by houston

Matthew 27:51-53 tells us what happened right after Jesus Christ died: “Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”

They did not ascend into Heaven at that time. Rather they went into the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many. How do we know this?

1 Tim. 6:14-16

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Paul was teaching many years later that ONLY JESUS HAS IMMORTALITY.

Also if they left the Earth and ascended up into Heaven David, a man after Gods own heart got left behind!

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

[RachelRose]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

They did not ascend into Heaven at that time. Rather they went into the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many. How do we know this?

1 Tim. 6:14-16

14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Paul was teaching many years later that ONLY JESUS HAS IMMORTALITY.

Also if they left the Earth and ascended up into Heaven David, a man after Gods own heart got left behind!

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

I enjoy thought provoking questions! I think when we pass to the other side all things happen at the same time. Time is curved. When Moses died long ago and you die today, the event is at the same "time" relative to the other side. Our physical dimension is bound by many vectors. When we are translated to the other side it is all happening at the same moment.