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Old 01-18-2018, 07:48 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Rev 12 & 13

I know that most of you have a greater understanding of scripture then I do. I’m posting my thoughts on Revelation 12 & 13 and would like for you to share your thoughts and insights also.

It’s interesting that Rev 12 begins with natural Israel and ends with Spiritual Israel, the church.

The red dragon also has multiple levels. Some say the passage is about the war in heaven whereby satan was cast out of heaven and took a third of the angels with him. The dragon is also the Satan from the garden, and the Beast of Revelation 13. What are your thoughts on the Red Dragon and the stars of heaven?

Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(Israel brings forth the Messiah)
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Jesus resurrect/ascends to heaven and inaugurates the Kingdom of God in heaven and on earth)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(The woman suffers persecution but is protected by God)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Satan, that serpent of old from the garden, and his angels lose dominion over the earth)
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(The church is given power to overcome Satan and his angels)
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(The seed of the woman is spiritual Israel, the Church, who has the testimony of Jesus Christ)

Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(The beast is the dragon from the garden and from Rev 12 manifested as empire)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(False religion cooperates with the beast/empire to deceive and destroy mankind)
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Last edited by Amanah; 01-18-2018 at 07:51 AM.
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  #2  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:19 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

Typical replacement theology, Amanah.
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  #3  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:22 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

Quote:
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(The church is given power to overcome Satan and his angels)


Given power to die?
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  #4  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:28 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

Church given power to die according to this?.....



14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
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  #5  
Old 01-18-2018, 08:33 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

3
Quote:
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

(The seed of the woman is spiritual Israel, the Church, who has the testimony of Jesus Christ)
So, God hides national Israel from satan and the Church is national Israel's seed being made war with?
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Old 01-18-2018, 08:36 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman(national Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed(144,000 Jews etc.), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.




Much better.
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  #7  
Old 01-19-2018, 03:54 AM
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houston houston is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

Quote:
I know that most of you have a greater understanding of scripture then I do
They are really a gift to this place, right?

Benincasa, Esaias, Blume,...

There’s a few more.
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  #8  
Old 01-19-2018, 05:22 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
One Thing-Phil 3:13-14


 
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by houston View Post
They are really a gift to this place, right?

Benincasa, Esaias, Blume,...

There’s a few more.
yes, I greatly appreciate them.
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  #9  
Old 01-19-2018, 10:00 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

I paused to allow for their input.
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  #10  
Old 01-19-2018, 08:20 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Rev 12 & 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
I know that most of you have a greater understanding of scripture then I do. I’m posting my thoughts on Revelation 12 & 13 and would like for you to share your thoughts and insights also.

It’s interesting that Rev 12 begins with natural Israel and ends with Spiritual Israel, the church.

The red dragon also has multiple levels. Some say the passage is about the war in heaven whereby satan was cast out of heaven and took a third of the angels with him. The dragon is also the Satan from the garden, and the Beast of Revelation 13. What are your thoughts on the Red Dragon and the stars of heaven?

Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(Israel brings forth the Messiah)
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Jesus resurrect/ascends to heaven and inaugurates the Kingdom of God in heaven and on earth)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(The woman suffers persecution but is protected by God)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Satan, that serpent of old from the garden, and his angels lose dominion over the earth)
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(The church is given power to overcome Satan and his angels)
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(The seed of the woman is spiritual Israel, the Church, who has the testimony of Jesus Christ)

Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(The beast is the dragon from the garden and from Rev 12 manifested as empire)
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
(False religion cooperates with the beast/empire to deceive and destroy mankind)
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
I would just add that Israel is a people, previously under the old covenant, now under the new covenant. Not two different groups of people under two different covenants claiming the same name.

There has only ever been one Israel of God. Those under the old covenant who refused Christ were broken off and, after the interim period of transition from old to new covenant ended in 70 AD, lost any claim to being the Israel of God. And no, the modern people calling themselves Jews are not the genetic remains of those cut off Israelites.

The remnant of the seed of the woman is exactly that, the descendants of the 12-tribed Israel of God that produced Messiah. AKA "the church".
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