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  #21  
Old 10-17-2018, 11:56 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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By "appearing" I meant "perceiving", being perceived in some sense. I should have been more clear.
Also, God has manifested or revealed Himself in several ways: visibly, audibly, and intellectually (that is, by means of "ideas" or concepts perceived by the intellect).

An example of the first is the pillar of fire, or the Man talking with Abraham, or He Whom Jacob wrestled.

An example of the second is God calling Samuel, God speaking from Sinai, the messages given to the prophets in which they heard God speaking.

An example of the third are the prophets' messages themselves (the content of the messages), Joseph's and Daniel's interpretations of divinely sent dreams, those dreams themselves, the content of most of the Scriptures, etc.

All of these can be thought of as variations on the same theme: the LOGOS. The term logos includes two essential, grammatical elements. 1) the idea or thought that serves as the "meaning" expressed by a word, and 2) the word itself that expresses a corresponding thought or idea or meaning. By extension, the term comes to mean a speech or discourse (as a unitary body of connected ideas expressed by words), and also a "matter" or "issue" (as an idea or collection of ideas that is spoken of, thought about, talked about, debated, etc). And by further extension, it becomes a science or collective body of knowledge on a subject (biology, zoology, theology, etc) as a unified collection of ideas expressed by words and discourses.

At it's furthest extension, metaphysically, it becomes any expression or revealing of a rational source or idea or intelligence. As in the "logos" of philosophy as used by Philo, the pagan Greeks, and ultimately by John (not saying they all had the same understanding, but all three used logos in a metaphysically extended sense).
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  #22  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:23 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
This does not seem like speculation.

1 Kings 22:19-22

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord is on the throne. He is having a conversation with angels. We are made to think this is not unusual.

The truth we are getting at is that if no one has seen God at any time per 1 John 4:12 what were the angels talking to?

The answer is the LOGOS "expression" of his person. The angels themselves did not and could not see God as omnipresent. They saw his visible image. From IT the invisible Spirit communicated with them.
Interesting that this recounted vision is called "The WORD of Jehovah".
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  #23  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:29 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post

Nonetheless in a discussion I had with Jason on the forum he would not fully commit to this position tho he had written these very words himself. Perhaps he feared consequences from UPCI circles.
Or perhaps he's just not entirely sure and doesn't want to have to issue later corrections to what might have been a flimsy presentation of doctrine?
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  #24  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:54 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
This does not seem like speculation.

1 Kings 22:19-22

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord is on the throne. He is having a conversation with angels. We are made to think this is not unusual.

The truth we are getting at is that if no one has seen God at any time per 1 John 4:12 what were the angels talking to?

The answer is the LOGOS "expression" of his person. The angels themselves did not and could not see God as omnipresent. They saw his visible image. From IT the invisible Spirit communicated with them.
I would say that it was a symbolic reference to our earthly understanding.

I had a vision or dream of kneeing before God at the Judgment Seat. I saw his white, linen robe, He was not wearing shoes, I did not see his face, and he was very, very large (probably, in my mind, how great I perceive Him to be). I was going to reach out and grab his ankles, but I drew back, covered my face with my hands and began to cry - "Thank you for letting me come and live here. Thank you for letting me come and live here."

So, did I see, Jesus? No, it was a symbol of what I know here on earth. I believe that is the same with Micaiah.
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  #25  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:56 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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Or perhaps he's just not entirely sure and doesn't want to have to issue later corrections to what might have been a flimsy presentation of doctrine?
Because I have read a lot of his writings, I agree this is most probable.
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  #26  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:16 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
This does not seem like speculation.

1 Kings 22:19-22

19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

The Lord is on the throne. He is having a conversation with angels. We are made to think this is not unusual.

The truth we are getting at is that if no one has seen God at any time per 1 John 4:12 what were the angels talking to?

The answer is the LOGOS "expression" of his person. The angels themselves did not and could not see God as omnipresent. They saw his visible image. From IT the invisible Spirit communicated with them.

When the scripture says no one has seen God at anytime that has nothing to do with Angels. No one is talking about human beings. Because what does He tell Moses in Exodus 33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Which the angels are already in the Spiritual realm already, as they are celestial beings. We being terrestrial would be a different thing. I don't believe we can use the word no one in the context of angelic beings though. I believe that is a term that deals with only human beings.
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  #27  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:19 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
When the scripture says no one has seen God at anytime that has nothing to do with Angels. No one is talking about human beings. Because what does He tell Moses in Exodus 33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Which the angels are already in the Spiritual realm already, as they are celestial beings. We being terrestrial would be a different thing. I don't believe we can use the word no one in the context of angelic beings though. I believe that is a term that deals with only human beings.
We agree !!
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  #28  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:31 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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We agree !!
Well thank you Jesus!! Lol
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  #29  
Old 10-22-2018, 03:59 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

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Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen View Post
When the scripture says no one has seen God at anytime that has nothing to do with Angels. No one is talking about human beings. Because what does He tell Moses in Exodus 33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Which the angels are already in the Spiritual realm already, as they are celestial beings. We being terrestrial would be a different thing. I don't believe we can use the word no one in the context of angelic beings though. I believe that is a term that deals with only human beings.
Obviously the angels saw God. But what they saw of him was also the Logos image, not his essence. How do we know? This speaks of his essence.

1 Kings 8:27

27But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

The eternal Spirit that we call God fills the Heaven and the Heaven of Heavens. He is as much present in some other Galaxy as he is in this one. Angels are not so. No created being can see the omnipresent spirit of YAH.

He created his image before the Angels. That way when he made them they had something of him to see.

His image was/is the firstborn of every creature, the beginning of the creation of God. A place where the omnipresent, invisible, eternal Spirit would dwell locally with Angels and men.

There is more to God than any created being has seen.
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  #30  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:21 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

He was with God in the beginning.

John. 1:2

Interesting stuff.
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