Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 10-29-2018, 06:52 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 18,688
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post

Both of these truths are true when we realize the first thing God ever made was a form, image, spiritual body to manifest himself through.

That was the Logos later revealed by the name Jesus Christ!
If the Logos was made then God made God. Unless the Logos is just a form or body, in which case the Logos is not God, and Jesus is only the incarnation of a divine body, rather than the incarnation of God.

I already refuted the idea that the Logos was made, and it seems you did not touch anything I said about that.

Trinitarians and Arians believe the first thing God did was generate the Logos, either by an eternal begetting (current view) or by actually making the Logos. Then, they both say, the Logos "made everything else". Which is contrary to Scripture.

None of the verses you provided say the Logos was formed, made, or created. YOU however have said the Logos was formed, made, and created. So YOU have a formed, made, and created God in addition to the Father. This is Arianism, JW theology, and early trinitarian thinking.

Jesus did not "reveal the Logos", He revealed the Father. This was possible because Jesus is the Logos, and the Logos reveals the Father. You have Jesus revealing the Logos, which is closer to trinity teaching than Oneness, to be honest.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 10-29-2018, 07:01 PM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 30,603
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If the Logos was made then God made God. Unless the Logos is just a form or body, in which case the Logos is not God, and Jesus is only the incarnation of a divine body, rather than the incarnation of God.


I already refuted the idea that the Logos was made, and it seems you did not touch anything I said about that.

Trinitarians and Arians believe the first thing God did was generate the Logos, either by an eternal begetting (current view) or by actually making the Logos. Then, they both say, the Logos "made everything else". Which is contrary to Scripture.

None of the verses you provided say the Logos was formed, made, or created. YOU however have said the Logos was formed, made, and created. So YOU have a formed, made, and created God in addition to the Father. This is Arianism, JW theology, and early trinitarian thinking.

Jesus did not "reveal the Logos", He revealed the Father. This was possible because Jesus is the Logos, and the Logos reveals the Father. You have Jesus revealing the Logos, which is closer to trinity teaching than Oneness, to be honest.
All Sacred Name groups in Dade and Broward counties that I know of believe the bolded. Yah and Yahshua, Yah created the Divine Body and placed the preexisting Yahshua into the virgin. That's why they alway speak as God as two individuals working together as Yahweh and Yahshua.
__________________
ALL pastors are hindrances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.~Steve Epley.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 10-29-2018, 08:06 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 18,688
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=52913
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 10-29-2018, 08:10 PM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
Happily "off the chain"


 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 18,688
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

An old post I made on Phil. 2 showing it has nothing do with any preincarnate logos becoming human, as Mike, the trinitarians, and the JWs think:

Hi, TB. I do not believe this passage is referring to any pre-incarnate state at all!

Rather, it is s specimen of Paul's Adam-Christology.

Paul presents several Christologies, meaning that Paul views Christ in several ways, or from several different perspectives. One of those perspectives concerns His role as the Second Adam. He speaks of this in his letter to the Romans, as well, and hints of it in several other places.

Here, Paul expresses Adam Christology and its practical application to the believer.

He begins with 'let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.' This sets the context, Christ's attitude and state of mind. Notice that Paul is speaking of the mind which was in 'Christ Jesus', literally 'The Anointed One, Jesus'. Thus, Paul is speaking of the post-incarnate Jesus, Jesus considered as the Messiah, a human being, the Son of God, anointed by God to be the vessel of Redemption and Salvation for all mankind, sent to reverse the curse brought upon Adam's kin, brought upon us by Adam's disobedience in the Garden. So we are not speaking of the mentality or attitude possessed by the pre-incarnate Logos, but of the human Son of God.

He then says "Who being in the form of God..." Here Paul recalls the words of Moses who described the first Adam as being made in the image of God. Paul will begin a comparison and contrast between the first Adam and the second Adam (Christ). Whereas BOTH were in the form of God, they followed two very different paths, because of their different attitudes or 'minds'.

'...thought it not robbery to be equal with God'. Some translators render this along the lines of '...did not think equality with God was something to be grasped.' This is precisely the opposite of the first Adam's inclination, who being in the form of God was not content to merely be a microcosm of God but chose to 'be as God'. Christ however did NOT pursue that path.

'But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men...' The first Adam attempted by his disobedience to make himself of quite some reputation, in attempting to usurp God's role and position for himself, and taking upon himself the form of a god, but was rendered mortal by the judgement of God. The second Adam, however, did just the opposite, in that He voluntarily took upon himself the form (appearance) of a servant (instead of a master, as He himself so declared several times). He was voluntarily reduced to the likeness or sameness of mortal man, whereas the first Adam was involunatrily reduced to such a state.

'And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.' Here Christ is said to have humbled himself, having taken the path of servanthood and mortality, and submitted to the death of the cross. This is in stark contrast to the first Adam, who being found in fashion as God (in the image and likeness of God) was disobedient (because of his grasping at being equal with God) and was forced into the path of lowly servanthood and mortality, weakness and death.

'Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name...' The first Adam was demoted and cast down, because of his disobedience in attempting to be equal with God, whereas the second Adam was exalted and lifted up and placed on an equal footing with God because of His obedience and submission.

'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' Jesus (the man, the Son of God, the second or 'last' Adam) was exalted into a place of equality with God so that the prophetic declaration of Isaiah concerning YHVH would be fulfilled in Christ, and this is the method by which glory is given to YHVH (God, the Father). This is a wonderful statement of the Oneness doctrine, by the way, in that the only acceptable way of glorifying God is to glorify Jesus Christ.

Whereas the first Adam was made in the image or form of God, and chose to grasp equality with God, and was punished by being demoted to the lowly state of mortal and weak humanity, made a servant of death, the second or last Adam, Jesus Christ, chose a different path. He chose a path of obedience, choosing not to step upon the stage as the equal of God but rather as a lowly, mortal servant. And this submission of the Son of God resulted in His exaltation to equality with God, meaning that the worship and honour due to God is now due to Jesus Christ. Christ's re-enactment of the fall of man, with the key elements reversed by His obedience, resulted in His exaltation and the redemption and salvation of mankind.

Trinitarians have for a long time seen this passage as a declaration of the pre-existence of Christ, and as referring to his 'kenosis' in incarnating and becoming human. There are however serious problems with this interpretation.

1. First and foremost, it inserts into Paul's theology what is everywhere else missing - the idea of a pre-incarnate divine intermediary being. The only New Testament passages which could even be supposed to so much as suggest or hint at such an idea are found much later, in the apostle John's writings, and even those are not wholly supportive of the 'intermediary divine being' hypothesis which is the foundation of Trinitarian and Arian theology.

2. Secondly, if the preincarnation interpretation be accepted, it requires us to believe that Jesus Christ (the man) was indeed a distinct personage from God prior to incarnation, yet at the same time LESS than God Himself and someone distinct from GOD (not merely distinct from 'God the father' but from GOD in toto.) This is nothing else than Arianism. If this is preincarnation doctrine, then Christ is simply a second God-like being, not God Himself, contrary to both trinitarian and Oneness theology.

3. The Adamic Christology interpretation is consistent with Paul's theology everywhere else, in presenting Christ as (among other things) a God-sent Saviour who recapitulates not only Israel's spiritual history, but all mankind's, yet in such a way as to reverse the fall of man and secure Redemption and immortality instead of death and mortality (as the first Adam did).

Moreover, the idea of Christ as being a pre-existent divine intermediary being is simply repugnant to the whole tenor of the rest of Scripture, ESPECIALLY the old testament scripture which was familiar to Paul and upon which he relied for teaching material.
__________________
Visit the Apostolic House Church YouTube Channel!

Instead of google, use www.yandex.com


Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

Conditional immortality proven - http://www.robertwr.com/

Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 10-29-2018, 08:25 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 12,508
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
All Sacred Name groups in Dade and Broward counties that I know of believe the bolded. Yah and Yahshua, Yah created the Divine Body and placed the preexisting Yahshua into the virgin. That's why they alway speak as God as two individuals working together as Yahweh and Yahshua.
But thats NOT what I have said is it? Or did you read what I actually said?
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 10-29-2018, 09:49 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 12,508
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

Quote:
If the Logos was made then God made God. Unless the Logos is just a form or body, in which case the Logos is not God, and Jesus is only the incarnation of a divine body, rather than the incarnation of God.
God never made another God. He made an image or form for himself to interact with creation. The Logos is Gods self expression as you have stated.

Quote:
I already refuted the idea that the Logos was made, and it seems you did not touch anything I said about that.
Thats strange I thought I posted several verses showing the Logos was formed, created, and born. I guess you reject it but I did respond.
Quote:
Trinitarians and Arians believe the first thing God did was generate the Logos, either by an eternal begetting (current view) or by actually making the Logos. Then, they both say, the Logos "made everything else". Which is contrary to Scripture.
Yes I explained the same thing earlier. This was the point of the thread. The link in post 1 tells the story of how Arians, Trins, and Twins corrupted the original Logos doctrine taught by John.

I hope you are not implying that what I am teaching is that the Logos is another co equal God person, or a begotten Son that was NOT Gods person, but rather a distinct junior God.

The intermediary being you are attempting to refute was a distortion by Arians, Trins, and Twins of something that ACTUALLY EXISTED, just not in the way they believed.

That is the point made by Mark August in his study.

I quoted several verses earlier that you seemed to miss.

Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The intermediary is shown in both places. It may not fit your theology but it isn't going away. So the intermediary must be either what they Arians, Trins, and Twins believe or Oneness could have the answer.


John adds another one into the mix.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God
All things were made by him and without him was nothing made that was made.

So we have as the intermediary:

Jesus Christ
The Son
The Logos

For Oneness.....or the scriptures for that matter to work the intermediary has to be the God who said he made all things alone and by himself. Isaiah 44:24

So there must be a way where God has a mediator......that is himself in another mode of being.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 10-29-2018, 10:15 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 12,508
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

Quote:
None of the verses you provided say the Logos was formed, made, or created. YOU however have said the Logos was formed, made, and created. So YOU have a formed, made, and created God in addition to the Father. This is Arianism, JW theology, and early trinitarian thinking.
You now distort my words. I have not added another God. What modern Oneness has done to weaken their Biblical position and credibility is to DENY there was an intermediary being, opening the door the Arians, Trins, and Twins which they routinely use to shame Oneness Apologists.

I have in this thread provided 3 scripture references to a personal intermediary who God used to create all things.

John 1:1
Eph. 3:9
Hebrews 1:1-3

Also taken as a whole these verses in Colossians teach the same thing.

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The intermediary is PERSONAL. Thats where modern Oneness goes astray. They teach what Mark August calls the "David Bernard model".

The Logos was not an intermediary being (personal) but rather a "thought" or a "plan".

So the Arians, Trins, and Twins, all can plainly see whats there. The intermediary being.

In this true and Biblical version of Oneness doctrine we have the answer.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the word and the word was WITH GOD and GOD WAS THE WORD!

Not two or 3 Gods but one God visible in one mode of being and invisible in another.

Peace and love.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 10-29-2018, 10:29 PM
1ofthechosen's Avatar
1ofthechosen 1ofthechosen is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,587
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos a car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
God never made another God. He made an image or form for himself to interact with creation. The Logos is Gods self expression as you have stated.



Thats strange I thought I posted several verses showing the Logos was formed, created, and born. I guess you reject it but I did respond.


Yes I explained the same thing earlier. This was the point of the thread. The link in post 1 tells the story of how Arians, Trins, and Twins corrupted the original Logos doctrine taught by John.

I hope you are not implying that what I am teaching is that the Logos is another co equal God person, or a begotten Son that was NOT Gods person, but rather a distinct junior God.

The intermediary being you are attempting to refute was a distortion by Arians, Trins, and Twins of something that ACTUALLY EXISTED, just not in the way they believed.

That is the point made by Mark August in his study.

I quoted several verses earlier that you seemed to miss.

Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The intermediary is shown in both places. It may not fit your theology but it isn't going away. So the intermediary must be either what they Arians, Trins, and Twins believe or Oneness could have the answer.


John adds another one into the mix.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God
All things were made by him and without him was nothing made that was made.

So we have as the intermediary:

Jesus Christ
The Son
The Logos

For Oneness.....or the scriptures for that matter to work the intermediary has to be the God who said he made all things alone and by himself. Isaiah 44:24

So there must be a way where God has a mediator......that is himself in another mode of being.
Sounds real good but what you have then is another created God. And a God can't be created. God could always manifest a body. He didn't have to create anything. Neither did the Angels. All this you are claiming is pure speculation and you are trying to take the passage in Colossians 1 and rationalize it all out. When what was being related was speaking of a forethought and a foretelling to come, firstborn of every creature has nothing to do with chronological order. But everything to do with a divine order that is out of space and time and was the reasoning, thought, plan and full intention of everything that would come. In that Jesus was the first born of all creation and everything was made in Him showing intention and purpose and for Him because He was the concept of human life. Before humans were God Himself was slain for our redemption that was the whole purpose of life. So that God would have the pre eminance. This is talking of forethought and a foretelling of things, not God made a body before anything else. That's not in the Bible nor alluded to.
__________________


Check out my new Podcast, and YouTube Channel:
https://histruthismarchingon.blubrry.net
This is a One God, Holy Ghost Filled, Tongue Talkin', Jesus Name podcast where it's all in Him!
Apostolic Truth! His Truth Is Marching On!
SUBSCRIBE!
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 10-29-2018, 10:38 PM
1ofthechosen's Avatar
1ofthechosen 1ofthechosen is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,587
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
You now distort my words. I have not added another God. What modern Oneness has done to weaken their Biblical position and credibility is to DENY there was an intermediary being, opening the door the Arians, Trins, and Twins which they routinely use to shame Oneness Apologists.

I have in this thread provided 3 scripture references to a personal intermediary who God used to create all things.

John 1:1
Eph. 3:9
Hebrews 1:1-3

Also taken as a whole these verses in Colossians teach the same thing.

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The intermediary is PERSONAL. Thats where modern Oneness goes astray. They teach what Mark August calls the "David Bernard model".

The Logos was not an intermediary being (personal) but rather a "thought" or a "plan".

So the Arians, Trins, and Twins, all can plainly see whats there. The intermediary being.

In this true and Biblical version of Oneness doctrine we have the answer.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the word and the word was WITH GOD and GOD WAS THE WORD!

Not two or 3 Gods but one God visible in one mode of being and invisible in another.

Peace and love.

Please do a word study of Colossians 1 in the original language. What it is saying is exactly what classical Oneness people have said about John 1. It solidifies that in Greek, but you can't see it in English. It doesn't translate it in detail in English. There was never a pre incarnate mediary nor is there now, that intermediary is the Holy Ghost which is the Spirit of Jesus and the Father who are absolutely the same being, only different expressions of that same One being. It's the blood that stands as a intermediary, of the sacrifice on Calvary. And the Spirit that makes intercession for us that is with us in within us who is simply "Christ in you the hope of glory." These are all the same, you at least believe in 2 different person's. You lost one but it's time to lose another one cuz you got one too many!
__________________


Check out my new Podcast, and YouTube Channel:
https://histruthismarchingon.blubrry.net
This is a One God, Holy Ghost Filled, Tongue Talkin', Jesus Name podcast where it's all in Him!
Apostolic Truth! His Truth Is Marching On!
SUBSCRIBE!
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 10-29-2018, 11:01 PM
Michael The Disciple's Avatar
Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 12,508
Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos

The scripture in Colossians has exactly the same meaning as the one in Hebrews.

Heb 1:1-2

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God made the worlds BY HIS SON.

But who IS his Son at creation. Watch closely.

1:3

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

A personal intermediary made the worlds according to Paul. Not merely a thought, plan or concept.

Paul here calls this intermediary his "Son".

Was Paul wrong? Did he forget to write that the worlds were made by a thought, plan, or concept?

Then he would have to explain how that impersonal thought, plan, or concept called HIS SON was the express image of HIS PERSON!

He didnt bother. He just said the Son was the brightness of his glory the EXPRESS IMAGE (not another person) of HIS person.

The Son that was used by God to make the worlds was a person. HIS PERSON. His visible image. Same thing Paul taught the Colossians.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Was The Logos? Michael The Disciple Fellowship Hall 32 02-25-2010 05:09 PM
Proof of a Pre-incarnate Son? EA Fellowship Hall 25 05-20-2009 02:09 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Salome

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.