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  #511  
Old 01-22-2020, 07:00 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Saturday was the day to worship Saturn. Every day had a god, but Christians gathering on the first day of the week predates Constantine.

It started in the bible. Christians gathering on the first day made sense as original they were Jews and spent the 7th day evangelizing Jews
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  #512  
Old 01-23-2020, 04:46 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Q: Why do you do what you do?

Me: Because it is written, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." Exodus 20:8.

You: Because (insert multiple pages of reasonings, alleged connections, arguments that prove things even you don't believe, anything and everything EXCEPT a verse that actually says "don't remember the Sabbath day but follow the standard set by Rome and at least do church every day of the sun.).

You're making slam dunks alright, just on the wrong side of the court.
It's a ritualistic observance foreshadowing the role of Christ. Just accept that and be done with the shadow. Simple. The many pages were required due to inability for folks to accept the simple language. That's all. A lot of it was just trying to correct some misrepresentation showing the step by step reading comprehension through the context to show the correct understanding.
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  #513  
Old 01-23-2020, 04:47 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Thanks everyone, you have given food for thought and an interest in further study.
Blessings!!
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  #514  
Old 01-23-2020, 11:29 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
It's a ritualistic observance foreshadowing the role of Christ. Just accept that and be done with the shadow. Simple. The many pages were required due to inability for folks to accept the simple language. That's all. A lot of it was just trying to correct some misrepresentation showing the step by step reading comprehension through the context to show the correct understanding.
The Lord's Supper is a ritualistic observance, not only pointing back to the Lord's death but also pointing forward to His return.

Baptism is a ritualistic observance, again not only pointing back to the Lord's death and resurrection, but also looking forward to ("foreshadowing") our resurrection. Kind of like how the Sabbath points back to Creation and forward to eternity.
Simple.

The many pages are required because you can't just point to any single Scripture that authorises or "spells out" your practice (unlike 4th commandment keepers). The step by step reading comprehension begins with a premise, and ends in a conclusion. When that conclusion contradicts the Scripture, and when the premise-conclusion reasoning leads to absurdities even the presenter of the argument would never follow, then the argument ("doctrine") is clearly in error.

All antisabbath argumentation displays a low opinion of the 4th commandment. God however felt inclined to mention it before even addressing murder and adultery, wrote it with His own finger, put it at the juxtaposition of commandments relating to God, and to our neighbour, and even demanded the death penalty for its disregard and profanation. Thus showing the antisabbath opinion and God's opinion are world's apart.

People expect to keep an eternal Sabbath rest with God, but can't even keep a weekly Sabbath rest with God on His terms. Faithful in little, faithful in much comes to mind. A person who in this life doesn't "like" something that God likes is going to be miserable in eternity.
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  #515  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:05 AM
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Re: Why Sunday

Hebrews 4 says there has been a place of rest from the foundation of the world, but because of a lack of faith man has continually failed to enter into it.

Quote:
1 God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. 2 For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. 3 For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others,

God said,
“In my anger I took an oath:
‘They will never enter my place of rest,’”

even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. 4 We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” 5 But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.”

6 So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. 7 So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted:

“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts.”

8 Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. 9 So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. 10 For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. 11 So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall.
Israel was broken off of Abraham's tree because they tried to obey by following the law to the letter, without the spirit of faith.

Quote:
Romans 11:17-21 New Living Translation (NLT)
17 But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. 18 But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.

19 “Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” 20 Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. 21 For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t[a] spare you either.
It seems like the place of rest is a place of trusting in God (faith) rather than trusting in works.

When Israel wandered in the wilderness, they had to trust God that when they gathered on the 6th day there would be enough for the seventh day.
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  #516  
Old 01-24-2020, 05:38 AM
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Hebrews 4 says there has been a place of rest from the foundation of the world, but because of a lack of faith man has continually failed to enter into it.



Israel was broken off of Abraham's tree because they tried to obey by following the law to the letter, without the spirit of faith.



It seems like the place of rest is a place of trusting in God (faith) rather than trusting in works.

When Israel wandered in the wilderness, they had to trust God that when they gathered on the 6th day there would be enough for the seventh day.
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  #517  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:41 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
The Lord's Supper is a ritualistic observance, not only pointing back to the Lord's death but also pointing forward to His return.

Baptism is a ritualistic observance, again not only pointing back to the Lord's death and resurrection, but also looking forward to ("foreshadowing") our resurrection. Kind of like how the Sabbath points back to Creation and forward to eternity.
Simple.
Baptism does not point ahead to our future resurrections. If you're thinking of Rom 6:4-5, that resurreciton is a salvation experiene of rising from death in trespasses and sins into a born again existence.

Baptism and Lord's supper were not said to be a shadow of things to come in the future, as sabbath was. At baptism, God actually does something with our sins! The Lord's supper is not something that we must keep lest we be lost. There is a huge difference.

Baptism and the Lord's supper were not things that the word of God said nothing about before they were actually instituted, as you claim the sabbath was to be kept without any word from God having directed them to do so before Moses. While this idea seems to have the appearance of being stringently founded upon the word that we must obey the 4th commandment, and no room exists to budge from that written word despite distinct references to it being a shadow after having noted that the handwriting of ordinances that was against us (and included that commandment) was removed, so as to give grounds to let no man judge us, suddenly the stringency goes without a care if the command to man before Moses was given or not. What happened to the demand to do what the Wword says and not assume anything when it comes to no word before Moses about man keeing the seventh day?

Thus, we have consistency in allowing some shadows to pass away and not others, and now we see a stringent unshaking demand to apply a commandment forever, outside of otherwise obvious context to anyone else who reads it, of its shadowy nature, despite distinct notes to it having this shadowy nature, but yet insistence it was kept before the written word even states s single note that it was kept by man before Moses.

Quote:
The many pages are required because you can't just point to any single Scripture that authorises or "spells out" your practice (unlike 4th commandment keepers).
No. The pages are required to show context that is otherwise very simple to anyone else who does not have vested personal identity with the issue.

I can point to a single verse, and have done so over and over again: Col. 2:16! Another one -- Gal 4:10.

Quote:
The step by step reading comprehension begins with a premise, and ends in a conclusion. When that conclusion contradicts the Scripture, and when the premise-conclusion reasoning leads to absurdities even the presenter of the argument would never follow, then the argument ("doctrine") is clearly in error.
There is no contradiction any more than it's a contradiction when you say that we are the temple of God when the Old Testament had a stone temple of God.

Quote:
All antisabbath argumentation displays a low opinion of the 4th commandment. God however felt inclined to mention it before even addressing murder and adultery, wrote it with His own finger, put it at the juxtaposition of commandments relating to God, and to our neighbour, and even demanded the death penalty for its disregard and profanation. Thus showing the antisabbath opinion and God's opinion are world's apart.
We cannot assume that just because it's beside the command to not murder, that it is somehow in the same category that transcends covenants. Where did that come from?

Quote:

People expect to keep an eternal Sabbath rest with God, but can't even keep a weekly Sabbath rest with God on His terms.
People expect to be called the temple of God but do not even consider that they have nothing to do with a natural concept of an Old Testamnent a temple any more. They're inconsistent with these arguments. They accept the New Jerusalem as no specific location in one place on the earth, but yet think other shadows are not to give way to the body. People can just as easily tell us all to rebuild a physical temple and recommence animal sacrifices since we should be faithful in the least things to be blessed with greater!


Quote:
Faithful in little, faithful in much comes to mind. A person who in this life doesn't "like" something that God likes is going to be miserable in eternity.
Better get involved in rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem, then! Bring out those old animal sacrifices, for it seems to be a matter of keeping the type despite the day of the antitype, in order for one to be faithful in the small things. Bro Baxter has a lot of helpful info on the red heifer!

Sabbath day is like the temple of Jerusalem and the animal sacrifices. They pointed to Jesus and their ritualistic purpose is gone.
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Last edited by mfblume; 01-25-2020 at 01:46 PM.
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  #518  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:43 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Hebrews 4 says there has been a place of rest from the foundation of the world, but because of a lack of faith man has continually failed to enter into it.



Israel was broken off of Abraham's tree because they tried to obey by following the law to the letter, without the spirit of faith.



It seems like the place of rest is a place of trusting in God (faith) rather than trusting in works.

When Israel wandered in the wilderness, they had to trust God that when they gathered on the 6th day there would be enough for the seventh day.
Yes, the place of rest was only foreshadowed by a trust in God for crops, for example, and other natural things, to send the message that the true and greater sabbath is resting in that kind of faith, giving no need to rest the actual seventh day in a ritualistic fashion any more.
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  #519  
Old 01-25-2020, 03:51 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Why Sunday

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Yes, the place of rest was only foreshadowed by a trust in God for crops, for example, and other natural things, to send the message that the true and greater sabbath is resting in that kind of faith, giving no need to trust in God for crops and other natural things.
Fixed it for ya.
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  #520  
Old 01-25-2020, 04:42 PM
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Re: Why Sunday

Nice try.lol

Rest is trust in God. The seventh year sabbath was rest for the land.

Esaias, do you keep the seventh year sabbath as well? Just wondering.

Those who panted crops would let the and rest the seventh year, and God would supernaturally bless the land to bring forth more food than if man did work it! This was a hint of the garden of Eden existence. God planted the trees and God caused a river to water the Garden. This River foreshadowed the Holy Ghost that is the rest Paul spoke about in 1 Cor 15.

So, sabbath year was a like a temporary Garden of Eden where God blessed the land without man working as He did in Genesis 2. But it was only for one year.

It reminds me of the atonement day when once a year the high priest went into the holiest that was barricaded by cherubims on the veil just as the Garden was barricaded by cherubims.

Sabbath day was man resting, a taste of Eden where man did not plant the garden nor water it, and sabbath year was God blessing the land to bring forth for Adam.

Canaan was called a rest as well in Hebrews 3, where Israel did not build houses nor plant vineyards, but they were already there!


Jesus spoke of the harvest of souls in a similar sense, where they did not have to say yet four months and there is harvest, for the fields were white already to harvest! In that same chapter John 4, we read Jesus' meat was to do the will of God and His drink was the living water of the Spirit.

Fast forward to Revelation 22 and see the river of life waters the trees of life, which is the Spirit of God giving life to us. God waters us with HIs SPirit! We are the planting of the Lord, and are trees of righteousness.

All of these pictures are missed by sabbath keepers, and these things show a return to the Garden existence of man before the fall, which is exactly what Jesus did for us at new creation of salvation.

That trust in God to supply is what Hebrews 4 talks about instead of working our way to please God. We trust in Christ's work to make us pleasing to Him and rest in that work.

Done are the days of temples made with hands, sabbath rests on a specific day to memorialize old creation, and animal sacrifices, feast days and years on the material world's calendar. Gal 4 is about calendars for sure, but not heathens'. It's Israel's old covenant calendar that dictated when they would ritualistically act in a shadow of what is the everyday lives of those saved and in the NEW creation.

Sabbath days are for those who have to work before they can rest, which tells a message about sin and death.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Adam would have rested forever with God, and not for a mere day, had he not sinned and was left to eat by the sweat of his brow til he returned to the earth.

Jesus made us from the earth again, but this time from His Tomb from which He resurrected to unite us with Himself to walk in newness of life. And He transported us from the 6th day to the 1st of the next week to rest BEFORE we work!

Man was made on the last day before the rest. He did not exist the first day of the old creation. His first full day of existence was the day God rested on the seventh. And he entered into God's rest when created.

After sin entered, man then came under law and had to work before he could rest, rather than be created by God to rest before anything else was done. He had to earn rest. Beyond created on the first day of the week in new creation shows we rest BEFORE we begin our activity. Jesus was in the tomb resting, so to speak, in death, and we were baptized into that death to rise with Him in NEWNESS of life. A new week!. He [passed from the old week in his death to the new week in his resurrection. This shows a message. It shows no work to earn a rest but God's work provided that rest. It's back again to God creating us, but in a new creation. We are active after we go through the work of God in the cross through Christ. We do not live to rest.

Every week the manna fell for six days and not the seventh. Man had to gather two omers of manna on the sixth day - a double portion. This spiritually shows us that the death of the cross is a double portion. His death counts as mine.

When we really grasp that we died with Jesus and the work was done to create s in a way to rest with Him, then we will not work to be the way we think we should be. We will rest our way through challenges and enemies We REST in CHRIST to conquer battles. STAND STILL and see the salvation of the Lord as we WAIT on Him rather than scurrying to struggle our own abilities and fight in flesh. It's not by might or power but HIS SPIRIT.

BEGIN with rest and then proceed from there, rather than the old covenant system of resting AFTER we work, which is salvation by works.

We BELIEVE to enter the rest, not work to enter. That is what Hebrews 4 is about.

So, new creation occurred and Jesus raised us with HImself on the first day of the week.

The sabbath day rest stood between the old creation on the sixth day and the new creation on the first. We are affected spiritually by the way we consider the sabbath day. I propose legalism is the underlying issue behind literal sabbath keeping, and the spiritual message of what day man was created in the Old Covenant opposed to what day we were new creature sin the new covenant shows the truth behind it all.
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